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D&D (2024) What Should D&D 2024 Have Been +

ezo

Where is that Singe?
Because players like the OP spells.
LOL of course they do! (Well, most of them I guess... I know several who prefer a more "balanced" game.)

It is like enjoying coffee and going to half-caff or decaf coffee instead.
Or like enjoying Coke (or Mt. Dew or whatever) and going to Coke Zero or Diet Coke.

You can drink the "reduced" versions, even come to enjoy them, and later find the regular too strong or sweet.

I don't think players even want a weaker Shield or Simulacrum which are the worst offenders. Sheild is so good you have characters, often martial characters, taking a 1-level dip to get it.
I'd be happier with shield equal to proficiency bonus instead of +5, and Simulacrum is fine if you restrict it to one instead of infinite. And frankly, stop the dips for purely mechanical/power reasons. It is an abuse of multiclassing IMO and DMs simple have to put their foot down on it.
 

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mamba

Legend
Because players like the OP spells.
I do not consider that a good reason to keep them

Also when it comes to balance and player preferences, I think there are far, far more players playing martials that want to be able to get an OP Shield spell on a 1-level multiclass than there are players playing martials but dislike how powerful Shield is. So it is not just people playing full casters that you are going to upset or nerf by making powerful spells less powerful.
have no problem with that whatsoever, I would eradicate multiclass dips altogether, you either level both classes equally, or you stick with one
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
On this, we agree. At its core, D&D should be a roguelike game of character growth through experience and acquisition. Leveling up would ideally just make the character a little tougher and maybe scale some of your base class features a bit.

Where I disagree is that I still want a robust character building suite at the start of the game. Build your fancy toy, and then send them out into the world and see what happens to them.
Perhaps the difference is that I'd like to see the pre-play character building very much reduced - you roll it up, choose species and class (with the features of each mostly baked-in), give it a name, figure out what languages it speaks, and drop the puck. Minor details like background, appearance, age, BIFTs, etc. can be worked out/rolled up/selected on the fly.

The reason for my thinking this way: IMO building that "fancy toy" up front* greatly reduces (in general) the player-side willingness to have that "toy" change or be changed by what it meets-encounters-does in play, which to me should be the most important determinant of what a character becomes.

* - for example, the notion of planning out a character's entire 1-20 career in 3e before the character even enters play never sat well with me.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I don't see this being the only way as any sort of benefit. Levelling up is something you can do in downtime. If you want complexity here's the best way to put it in.
By "downtime" do you mean player downtime between sessions or in-game character downtime?

Personally I'd like levelling up to be done at the table, such that play can continue once it's done...and thus, I'd like it to not be complex. Feats are awful for this, as I learned in 3e, due to not only having to choose them now but also having to worry about the current choice's effect on potential later choices.

Arcane spells learned at level-up are random (i.e. whatever your trainer hapened to want to teach you at the time), which neatly does away with the time it'd take some players to choose.
But game mechanical should be a part of it if you have large complex rulebooks. And the problem with 1e is that equipment isn't character.
Equipment isn't all of character, but there's no reason it can't be some; and equipment inevitably comes and goes over time in 1e due to its destructability.
If your mechanics don't show individual character growth then what's the point of them other than for a tabletop wargame? And they just show class growth in 1e with people being cookie cutter members of their classes mechanically. It's only loot that shows character growth.
And personality, and played history.

I've got two 10th-level Fighters out there. Both started around the same time (one in '83, one in '84), and they're mechanically very much the same other than one has a specialized weapon and the other does not (we didn't have weapon spec. in 1983 and I decided not to pick it up later). They're also both Human males, and both are still alive and active today.

Right from the start, though, their personalities were quite different - '83 is a practical problem solver, fairly quiet, and started out looking to get rich; while '84 is a loud vulgar-mouthed PITA who hates Mages and strongly supports the Fighters of the world. And their in-play histories have made them even more different. Yes they both got married during their played careers, '83 to a long-time running mate (another player's PC) who later turned out to be - I kid you not! - a princess in hiding; '84 to a long-time NPC partner-in-crime; but those marriages also went different ways: '83's marriage has been, to say the least, rocky (they're literally living on different worlds now, trying to reconcile long-distance for the whatever-number'th time); 84's is doing fine and they're currently building a stronghold together.

End result: someone seeing these characters in play would have no idea that under it all their game-mechanics are nigh-identical. And that's the point: not only are game mechanics not everything when it comes to defining a character; there comes a point where their input doesn't mean that much at all.

Oh, and "84" is Lanefan, my namesake here. :) "83" started out as the captive engineer found in the lower level of A2 Slavers' Stockade.
Out of curiosity what do you do to stop it? Soulbind the items so when the PC dies they vanish.
Not at all. :) But I try to encourage players to make wills for their characters, and it's kind of accepted that you don't will things to your own other characters - particularly ones that don't even exist yet! - unless there's a very good and logical in-game reason. For example, a player once brought in two brothers at once; obviously, they willed their possessions to each other, and that's fine.

And - again perhaps obviously - you can always will things to your family members etc., but by then we'll already know if said family members are adventurers or (far more likely) not, and their class-level-etc. if they are.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
What specifically isn't useful to print, especially in the core PHB, is a spell everybody agrees should never be used under no circumstance. That is, the spells that multiple guides all rate as red.
What about the sort of spells that most of the time serve no purpose but in particular (if rare) circumstances could and would be the difference between life and death? Or even between being able to complete a mission or not?

Water Breathing might be one such. It'd be all red all the time in a desert-based campaign and might be red in most others; you rarely ever need it, but when you need it you really need it, and right now.

(BTW, where do these colour codes come from anyway?)
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Because players like the OP spells.
Obviously.

Players like anything that makes their characters more powerful. It's simple human nature.

But sometimes the designers just have to suck it up and rein in that power, even if players don't like it and vote against it in surveys.
I don't think players even want a weaker Shield or Simulacrum which are the worst offenders. Sheild is so good you have characters, often martial characters, taking a 1-level dip to get it.
The very idea of "dipping" needs to die in a fire.
 

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
The reason for my thinking this way: IMO building that "fancy toy" up front* greatly reduces (in general) the player-side willingness to have that "toy" change or be changed by what it meets-encounters-does in play, which to me should be the most important determinant of what a character becomes.
That's an artifact of baked in class progressions, where what you pick at 1st level (like class) constrains what you're going to be able to choose 10 levels later. Abolish that, and the culture (may) change.

This is a little simpler than what I want, but ideally D&D character growth would end up looking like Talisman (the board game). Your 1 Strength 4 Craft wizard might end up a physical powerhouse with 8 Str, a magic sword, and magic armor based on the random events of the game.
 

ECMO3

Hero
LOL of course they do! (Well, most of them I guess... I know several who prefer a more "balanced" game.)

I have heard a few (very few) players talk about balance and imply that they might like a more balanced game, but I have never actually seen that displayed in play.


It is an abuse of multiclassing IMO and DMs simple have to put their foot down on it.

I have a big aversion to the DM "putting his foot down" on anything. If you players want that option and it is in the rules why take it away from them? How is the game improved by telling players "you can't do that". This is especially true if it was not stated in session 0. If the DM says in session 0 - no multiclassing or even if he introduces a homebrew where you have to progress both classes, that is fine .... and most players who want to build this type character will simply find another game. But it is not right to literally change the rules on the fly because you don't like the options a player chose.

The DM has all the power levers and can challenge any party with any gear or any options, so I don't see how this is something bad.
 
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Shadowedeyes

Adventurer
As someone who played MtG, most players are not a good judge of what makes for a good card for the game. D&D isn't exactly the same, generally it is far less competitive between players for example, but I've seen enough homebrew to believe that it is similar in terms of RPG design.
 

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