D&D General What Should Magic Be Able To Do, From a Gameplay Design Standpoint?

The anime, Solo Leveling, feels important. It illustrates well what D&D looks like at higher levels (and analogously accelerating technology). It isnt zero to hero, but, zero to superhero. And it organizes by tiers: civilian, E, D, C, B, A, and S, akin to tier background, tiers 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, 13-16, 17-20, and tier epic.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

This then invites the classic haggling technique of intentionally aiming too high, so you can seem reasonable when you pull back.

"I want to rewrite existence so the bad guy never existed"
"Okay sure, but you'll erase every sapient species in the doing"
"Oh, well that's obviously too harmful, I guess I'll just wish to obtain conclusive proof of the BBEG's planned treachery against their allies instead."

By making power level dependent on negotiation and GM psychology, you have instantly made magic game-able in a way non-magic cannot ever be. Non-magic is, as always, enslaved to limitations, usually ones much harsher than even what is actually possible IRL, while magic can game the system over and over and over again until it gets very nearly anything it wants, for little more than a song.
Only if the dm lets them do it. How is that different than melee killing the king and claiming the kingdom. If DM lets hijinxes insue then no rule is going to limit them or make it better magic or no magic. You are arguing rules to stop a game style.
 


So, what I'm hearing is, you'd like to have the Wizard specialize in effects that inhibit enemies (debuffs, lockdowns, summoning extra bodies on the field, no-go zones, etc.), effects that enable allies (isolating foes, repositioning allies, creating beneficial terrain, etc.), and more obscure utility effects (more-or-less what 5e rituals do now)? Stuff where the Wizard on her own can't win fights, but can easily turn a fight from a formidable threat to a manageable (but still meaningful) challenge to the team?

Almost like a controller sort of thing…

Wait.
 

I never saw it as much more powerful than medium healing or potions. Hate of that spell always confused me
it never fit the fantasy I watched/read and I also `didn't like that it counted as a meal. Now, it is worse, imo, as it nourishes for one whole day. It is just one of many spells that I remove.
 

Today with at-will magic in the game, yes.

In the TSR days, I'm not so sure. They could do some flashy stuff, yes, but not that often due to Vancian slot limits. Flip side: a high-end psionic in the TSR editions could get pretty close to Dr Strange territory.
Oh, they absolutely could in earlier editions.

BUT....they wouldn't. The opportunity cost of "wasted" spells was brutal, almost paralyzing.

1e casters had way more leveled spells than 5e characters and they were, relatively speaking, far more powerful because hit point inflation didn't exist yet. E.g. upcast a fireball to 9th level almost can't kill a troll in 5e, while they could reliably do so in 1e after 10th level. Single spells could kill fully grown dragons in one hit, though it required some luck. Its just not possible in 5e.

Imagine a goblin army coming at a town protected by a 20th level wizard. A 5e caster could throw 8 fireballs, 3 delayed blasts, and 1 Meteor Swarm. They could do it again the next day after breakfast. Until then, crossbows or a cantrip if the goblins get within 120ft.

A 20th level 1e caster could prepare & fire off 19 fireballs, 6 delayed blast fireballs, and 2 Meteor swarms. Then they needed a rest and 2-3 days to recharge. But then they also threw more than twice as many spells that were more lethal than their 5e equivalents.

If they focused on just enough to replicate the 5e combat spell array of 11 fireballs and 1 meteor swarm, , it is 390min of prep, or 6.5hrs. So instead of running dry shortly after breakfast, they ran dry shortly before supper. For some reason that feels worse on many levels.

I think relieving the caster paralysis was a good thing for the game and I also think weakening the spells effectiveness was also good for balance. I wish they had weakened the spells directly rather than upping monster hp because that also weakened martial attacks.
 
Last edited:

What does that look like from a design perspective?
Look at Earthdawn. It has multiple mechanics for affecting the "cost" of a spell. It is a whole system tat attempts to take the tropes of 1e d&d and make them "in-game canon". It is also chock full of magical technology. Light crystals, flying ships, pots that get hot on command, cloaks that warm you up, etc.

It's Eberron but 2 decades before people were ready for it.

It has a blood magic system with multiple options. The simplest is strain, aka damage. It's used by all PC classes, casters and warriors. A warrior can haste themselves bybtaking some strain.

Some spells allow other people to take strain. These are rare, and usually rituals or where the target of a spell takes strain.

Sometimes the damage is permanent, or semi-permanent. This is like a d&d wizard giving hit points to a homunculus. Can't heal it until the timer expires.

A variant of "blood" is "healing" potential. Some spells require spending Recovery Tests (healing dice), either from the caster or recipient. Imagine if "cure wounds" meant you got to roll twice as many dice. Or if you didn't need to eat....but gave up half your ability to heal.

Then there are Wounds. Wounds heal slowly, like 1/day, and they give you penalties to everything you do. Any time you take a lot of damage in one shot, you take a Wound. Strain can cause wounds. But some things can cause Wounds without damage.

Another dial is time/action economy. Spell casting is "weaving" "threads" of magic. Big spells need more threads just to function. Or you can "upcast" spells by adding more threads. It takes time & skill (die rolls) to weave threads. Sometimes you can spend strain to do it faster. Sometimes you can learn tricks to prepare spells with threads attached.

Earthdawn is a point-buy system, so sometimes you can spend Legend (xp) to power an effect. It is usually tied to items, but a powerful spell could conceivably require Legend. (D&d 3e used this)

Material components are always an option, but those usually only apply to low level characters or for spells the party can likely only cast 2-3 times a campaign. Earthdawn adds a whole concept of Pattern Items. These are things/places that are tightly bound to a thing and can establish a sympathetic link. Think Horcrux. In Earthdawn if you used magic to tear up the Constitution of the US, it would literally harm the country. Some magic might only work if you get a pattern item.

Lastly is "future danger". Earthdawn doesn't require weaving threads. You can cast spells without threads. The problem is doing so drops your protections from demons that are essentially omnipresent in the Ethereal, who will Mark you. And begin to corrupt you. Or maybe they wait a year. Or five. When you are a more powerful tool. Then they corrupt you, possess you, give the GM license to giggle while rolling dice, etc.
 

What does that look like from a design perspective?
To summarize in 5e equivalents, the following could be applied to the caster of a spell, the recipient of a spell, or both:
  • damage, that heals normally
  • long-term damage (reducing max hit points) that can't be healed for days weeks, months, years, or never (similar to homunculus)
  • Use of recovery dice
  • Apply penalties. This could take the form of 5e Exhaustion, like Resurrection/Raise Dead.
  • Exhaustion may be long-term
  • require "upcasting" to take extra time
  • spells take more than 1 action to cast that aren't rituals (i.e. Mirage Arcane)
  • Treat spells that take more than 1 round to cast as being "Concentration" which can be disrupted (I believe 5e Rituals are already this way)
  • spells other than scrying & teleport could require sympathetic magic
  • Introduce a "bypass other constraints by taking a Curse/Insanity that can't be cured easily" mechanism
 
Last edited:

Oh, they absolutely could in earlier editions.

BUT....they wouldn't. The opportunity cost of "wasted" spells was brutal, almost paralyzing.

1e casters had way more leveled spells than 5e characters and they were, relatively speaking, far more powerful because hit point inflation didn't exist yet. E.g. upcast a fireball to 9th level almost can't kill a troll in 5e, while they could reliably do so in 1e after 10th level. Single spells could kill fully grown dragons in one hit, though it required some luck. Its just not possible in 5e.
Keep in mind that there weren't that many 1e games that went much beyond 9th level, as the game kinda soft-capped at that "name level" point and the whole system started to wobble rather badly a few levels hence.
Imagine a goblin army coming at a town protected by a 20th level wizard. A 5e caster could throw 8 fireballs, 3 delayed blasts, and 1 Meteor Swarm. They could do it again the next day after breakfast. Until then, crossbows or a cantrip if the goblins get within 120ft.

A 20th level 1e caster could prepare & fire off 19 fireballs, 6 delayed blast fireballs, and 2 Meteor swarms. Then they needed a rest and 2-3 days to recharge. But then they also threw more than twice as many spells that were more lethal than their 5e equivalents.
The number of 20th-level wizards ever played as PCs in 1e would have been vanishingly small, which is what made NPCs like Elminster stand out so much. You're comparing apples to oranges here, to a great extent.

Now BECMI, which in theory went to 100th level, is a different story; and I've no idea how that system works at very high level other than the pre-gen characters in the I-series modules I have seem mighty underwhelming.
I think relieving the caster paralysis was a good thing for the game and I also think weakening the spells effectiveness was also good for balance. I wish they had weakened the spells directly rather than upping monster hp because that also weakened martial attacks.
By "caster paralysis" are you referring to the time spent studying/praying for spells each day? If not, what are you getting at?
 

The anime, Solo Leveling, feels important. It illustrates well what D&D looks like at higher levels (and analogously accelerating technology). It isnt zero to hero, but, zero to superhero. And it organizes by tiers: civilian, E, D, C, B, A, and S, akin to tier background, tiers 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, 13-16, 17-20, and tier epic.
Another nod to D&D would be that the Hunters in the anime come in six different class types:

* Assassins
* Fighters
* Healers
* Mages
* Rangers
* Tankers
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top