D&D General What Should Magic Be Able To Do, From a Gameplay Design Standpoint?

[Reynard]

Anything, with the caveat that the bigger the effect the bigger the consequences.

What does that look like from a design perspective?

 

[nevin]

More rules like the rough stuff in the wish spell. Roll to see if you can ever do it again. What if by creating a demi plane th caster were somehow bound to it and when the caster spent too long away from it they and the demiplane diminished. What if clone or simulacrum took a permanent set amount of hit points away forever? God's should have full power for miracles in their own sphere of power, but not in another gods sphere. Maybe you should have to negotiate with the goddess of death for resurrection magic for example. What is the god of war going to do when you earthquake the valiant warriors on the other side?

 

[Tonguez]

More rules like the rough stuff in the wish spell. Roll to see if you can ever do it again. What if by creating a demi plane th caster were somehow bound to it and when the caster spent too long away from it they and the demiplane diminished. What if clone or simulacrum took a permanent set amount of hit points away forever? God's should have full power for miracles in their own sphere of power, but not in another gods sphere. Maybe you should have to negotiate with the goddess of death for resurrection magic for example. What is the god of war going to do when you earthquake the valiant warriors on the other side?

yeah the one time I allowed a Resurrection Spell it opened a portal into the Realm of the Dead and the PCs had to go do an Orpheus quest to find the soul. I like magic being mythic deeds. Earthquake should involve summoning an cataclysm elemental who the mage then needs to try and control etc etc

 

[Reynard]

yeah the one time I allowed a Resurrection Spell it opened a portal into the Realm of the Dead and the PCs had to go do an Orpheus quest to find the soul. I like magic being mythic deeds. Earthquake should involve summoning an cataclysm elemental who the mage then needs to try and control etc etc

This is cool,but I might worry that such things further spotlight spellcasters who already take up extra spotlight time.

 

[nevin]

This is cool,but I might worry that such things further spotlight spellcasters who already take up extra spotlight time.

Not if the consequences are bad enough they have to worry about them. And in the god of war example it might be the party Melee that have to shine when the Caster gets screwed out of magic till the God of Wars curse is lifted. They aren't Consequences if they aren't appropriate for what was done. Maybe the caster loses caster levels and gets turned into a straight warrior

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Anything, with the caveat that the bigger the effect the bigger the consequences.

This then invites the classic haggling technique of intentionally aiming too high, so you can seem reasonable when you pull back.

"I want to rewrite existence so the bad guy never existed"
"Okay sure, but you'll erase every sapient species in the doing"
"Oh, well that's obviously too harmful, I guess I'll just wish to obtain conclusive proof of the BBEG's planned treachery against their allies instead."

By making power level dependent on negotiation and GM psychology, you have instantly made magic game-able in a way non-magic cannot ever be. Non-magic is, as always, enslaved to limitations, usually ones much harsher than even what is actually possible IRL, while magic can game the system over and over and over again until it gets very nearly anything it wants, for little more than a song.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

yeah the one time I allowed a Resurrection Spell it opened a portal into the Realm of the Dead and the PCs had to go do an Orpheus quest to find the soul. I like magic being mythic deeds. Earthquake should involve summoning an cataclysm elemental who the mage then needs to try and control etc etc

See, I love this! This is one possible way I'd handle a PC resurrection in my Dungeon World game, if one were ever needed. As you say, make it mythic, make it an awesome adventure, a journey, not a "push button, get prizes" effect.

But I do the same thing for everyone. Martial character wants to explore new possibilities? Awesome, I'm 100% game for that. Perhaps they go on a quest to find a lost tome of martial tactics and philosophy (a thing that actually was the main personal quest of a martial character in my DW game), or they hear about a set of legendary equipment (also a thing for a different character), or they start working with a local blacksmith who has the skill to make amazing things but not the materials (also a thing I've done for a semi-martial character), or...etc., etc.

That's how you truly make a world feel magical. It's not by expanding or restricting access to basic magic, nor by making magical items incredibly rare even for a basic +1, nor by placing harsh restrictions on classes or races. It's by having earned power. It's by defining what is only just barely out of the party's reach, but still theoretically reachable, and then giving them the chance to pursue it.

 

[zakael19]

See, I love this! This is one possible way I'd handle a PC resurrection in my Dungeon World game, if one were ever needed. As you say, make it mythic, make it an awesome adventure, a journey, not a "push button, get prizes" effect.

But I do the same thing for everyone. Martial character wants to explore new possibilities? Awesome, I'm 100% game for that. Perhaps they go on a quest to find a lost tome of martial tactics and philosophy (a thing that actually was the main personal quest of a martial character in my DW game), or they hear about a set of legendary equipment (also a thing for a different character), or they start working with a local blacksmith who has the skill to make amazing things but not the materials (also a thing I've done for a semi-martial character), or...etc., etc.

That's how you truly make a world feel magical. It's not by expanding or restricting access to basic magic, nor by making magical items incredibly rare even for a basic +1, nor by placing harsh restrictions on classes or races. It's by having earned power. It's by defining what is only just barely out of the party's reach, but still theoretically reachable, and then giving them the chance to pursue it.

I love the Seeker from Stonetop for this. They don't have any inherent magic themselves, really - what they do have is a handful of Arcana they need to unlock the knowledge and usage of; which have tremendous power, and equally remarkable building consequences on a miss.

I think I'd love to see Arcane spell casting focused more on enabling their party members to do things. Give them a basic Blast spell (Cantrip, flavor it as a Magic Missile or Wand Shot, or Fire Bolt or whatever); maybe with an option at L1 to go between a mild AOE or a slightly better one shot; do the usual "this doesnt scale as well as your martial does." Then give them lots of interesting tools to stymie the enemy, enable their friends, pierce magical obstacles, influence the battle space, tackle unique elemental requirements, etc. But as part of a combined arms team, making everybody else more awesome or allowing the DM to deploy interesting puzzles.

Screw this "one man encounter ender" stuff. Boring.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I love the Seeker from Stonetop for this. They don't have any inherent magic themselves, really - what they do have is a handful of Arcana they need to unlock the knowledge and usage of; which have tremendous power, and equally remarkable building consequences on a miss.

I think I'd love to see Arcane spell casting focused more on enabling their party members to do things. Give them a basic Blast spell (Cantrip, flavor it as a Magic Missile or Wand Shot, or Fire Bolt or whatever); maybe with an option at L1 to go between a mild AOE or a slightly better one shot; do the usual "this doesnt scale as well as your martial does." Then give them lots of interesting tools to stymie the enemy, enable their friends, pierce magical obstacles, influence the battle space, tackle unique elemental requirements, etc. But as part of a combined arms team, making everybody else more awesome or allowing the DM to deploy interesting puzzles.

Screw this "one man encounter ender" stuff. Boring.

So, what I'm hearing is, you'd like to have the Wizard specialize in effects that inhibit enemies (debuffs, lockdowns, summoning extra bodies on the field, no-go zones, etc.), effects that enable allies (isolating foes, repositioning allies, creating beneficial terrain, etc.), and more obscure utility effects (more-or-less what 5e rituals do now)? Stuff where the Wizard on her own can't win fights, but can easily turn a fight from a formidable threat to a manageable (but still meaningful) challenge to the team?

 

[Greg K]

I remember a conversation I had with someone griping about Goodberry in modern D&D and I was like "now wait a minute, that's been a Druid spell since AD&D! How come it's a problem now, and it wasn't back then?"

I never liked the spell and did not allow it back in AD&D.