What Tech Level is the Hobbit?

[kenobi65]

The shadow of Sauron?

The Necromancer referred to in "The Hobbit" was Sauron. He established himself in Dol Guldur, under that name, around TA 1100 (that is, about 1800 years before "The Hobbit"). He apparently was using the name "Necromancer" to hide his identity while he rebuilt his power. The Wizards suspected he was a Nazgul; Gandalf finds out the truth when he enters Dol Guldur "offstage" during "The Hobbit", but it's only alluded to, IIRC.

In TA 2941 (the same year as the events in "The Hobbit"), Sauron left Dol Guldur for Mordor, and openly redeclared himself.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Almost certainly incorporeal.

And I agree that Tolkien's attempt to squeeze The Hobbit into his mythology seems a bit tortured. That book works wonderfully as a stand-alone fairy tale with a clear appeal to younger readers and substantially less weightiness than the LotR.

In any case, tea, umbrellas, doorbells, and cockney trolls are all part of the role of hobbits in Middle-Earth, which is to provide a parallel to the pastoral English values and lifestyle that form the central moral core of The Hobbit, and an important part of LotR (although largely for nostalgic purposes).

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

You know, I just don't find the hobbit tech level to be a continuity problem. Nobody goes to the Shire except Gandalf, because it's completely uninteresting to your average human, who's interested in money and power. The hobbits obviously have an aversion to leaving the Shire. They live an easy, pastoral life that gives them lots of time to sit around and find ways to save on labour in their daily life. Hence, in terms of conveniences and comforts, they're at around a renaissance level of technology, but not in any other department.

Also, the fireworks are Gandalf's doing. And he's a wizard.

 

[lukelightning]

Also, the fireworks are Gandalf's doing. And he's a wizard.

Ah, but I don't think the fireworks are magical things that only he can make they sound an awful lot like *gasp* technology! Like Sauruman's explosives. Basically it's knowledge kept secret from other people.

 

[sniffles]

One thing that always drove me nuts was Tolkeins Ret Conning of his own work.

For example, when he wrote the hobbit the elves were elves and of a different species than humans. But later he comes in and say "well I should have not used the word elf as they are simply higher humans...." or somthing to that effect.

Huh? (grabs copies of The Hobbit and all supplementary Middle-Earth books, frantically searching for what jester47 is talking about). Hobbits were supposed to be another variety of humans, not elves.

I would not pay any attention to anachronisms in The Hobbit. Tolkien basically wrote it as a bedtime story for his kids. Childrens' stories don't have to have real-world logic. He wrote The Hobbit when he had a lot of ideas for Middle-Earth, but he hadn't organized it all out into a cohesive history yet.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Ah, but I don't think the fireworks are magical things that only he can make they sound an awful lot like *gasp* technology! Like Sauruman's explosives. Basically it's knowledge kept secret from other people.

Yeah, wizards aren't into open-sourcing their shticks.

 

[Akrasia]

One thing that always drove me nuts was Tolkeins Ret Conning of his own work.

For example, when he wrote the hobbit the elves were elves and of a different species than humans. But later he comes in and say "well I should have not used the word elf as they are simply higher humans...." or somthing to that effect.

Bullpocky. ...

I'm sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about.

The elves were always elves...

 

[jester47]

We know that the Lord of the Rings was intended as a sequel to the Hobbit. But while LotR requires the events of the Hobbit, the Hobbit does not require the sequal of LotR. And for that I am glad. In a way they could be two stories from two different worlds.

I like the LotR. But I kind of wish he had kept it consistant with the Hobbit. I would have liked to have seen the following happen: (and if I get really prideful, I might do it as a Fan Fic, yeah, right)

The dark lord sauron does want the ring, but he did not make it. And it does need to be destroyed. Sauron is the necromancer of Mirkwood. But thats where the similarities in my mind stop. The necromancer, after getting chased out of the wood heads over the misty mountains, began collecting the rings of power. He created servants, the ring wraiths to help him collect the rings. Originally he started with nine made from heroes that he had captured or from kings he had apprenticed in sorcerous arts only with the intent to enslave them. I would have increased the number of total rings of power to twenty five to include 5 rings for the handling of magic beyond the racial rings. I would still have saruman dominated, and there would still be the need to destroy the master ring, but the story would be about safegaurding the remianing rings and then finding the forge where "the very smart and very ancient yet very mortal being" forged the ring so the magic could be unmade. The rings would have been made by someone who dominated the world through their use. His family became the line of kings handing down the ring from generation to generation. Some were good and used the rings for right, others were evil and would enslave the world with them. The rings could be taken off but the bearer would loose the power and control over his people putting those who did so at a disadvantage to the overkings. When the main ring was lost the kingdom fell apart and some of the other rings were lost over thousands of years. The necromancer having found the secrets to long life had been seeking out these rings for some time. Aragorn would be of the line of the ring kings but would understand that it needed to be destroyed and that the world would be better off free. The plot would revolve around all this.

Kind of silly.

Still what he wrote was much better than anything I could put out. There is a cohesiveness and lesson in the LotR that I could never acheive. But the rift between the hobbit and the LotR will always bug me. I prefer them as completely separate stories.

 

[jester47]

I'm sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about.

The elves were always elves...

I do have a very good idea of what I am talking about.
You simply are misunderstanding what I am saying.
[Edit] That was just a really unclear sentence. I just realised that I missed a 'not' I have gone back and fixed it.

In a letter in his later years Tolkein expressed regret at calling the elves elves as it really did not fit what they were and that he should have made the races a difference of culture rather than species. In this letter he was expressing some regret over tieing his mythology to the hobbit. Keep in mind, this was at the end of his life in the seventies after all the fandom crap he had to endure in the sixties. If you asked him about it in the late 50's you probably would have gotten a different answer. My point was this:

Mr. Tolkien, in the 50's you wrote them as elves and you were proud of it, please don't let a bunch of hippies that misinterpret what your story is about and a bunch of critics that call your mythology silly because it has elves in it change your mind.

 

[jester47]

Huh? (grabs copies of The Hobbit and all supplementary Middle-Earth books, frantically searching for what jester47 is talking about). Hobbits were supposed to be another variety of humans, not elves.

uhoh. (grabs shovel, starts digging out of trouble)

I was refering to a letter that he wrote late in life where he stated he regretted tieing the mythology to legendary creatures because too many hippies had asked him about elves durring the 60's. (leonard nimoy probably did not help either). It was never made official, but this letter indicted some desire to retcon. He stated the connotation of elf corrupted the image of the type of being he was trying to convey.