What the heck is "First Edition Feel"?

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rogueattorney said:
3e is not a perfect game. I could go into a litany of the problems I have with it, and the reasons I think 1e is a better game. But what would be the point of that? The real issue is that 1e is a different game than 3e, and it's completely natural that some will like it better than 3e.

R.A.

So, if I understand the crux of what your saying is that basically both systems suck, so might as well play the one you're more familiar with?

I can buy that, I guess.

But that still doesn't answer the question as to what "1st edition feel" is, exactly.

Or, a better question might be - can the 3rd edition publishers that produce games which have a "1st edition" feel truly recreate it using 3rd edition rules?
 

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die kluge said:
But wanting to play an old module is a little different than wanting to play new stuff and using the 1st edition ruleset. Why do people do that? What is it about that ruleset that makes people want to use it over the new ruleset

Because the features that make it superior to one person are not demonstrably superior to another. Bigger and more detailed isn't necessarily better.

Why do I use my cell phone, which has an address book, and calls people, and that's all it does? I could instead for no additional money have a cell phone that takes pictures, keeps a calendar, checks my e-mail, and plays games. But I don't need it. All the extra features, while nice, get in the way when I want to simply PLACE A CALL. I have to scroll through three other options if all I want to do is dial a number. It'd be nice to buy new batteries for my simplistic phone, if they made them; but they don't.

Any more sense, or is the example useless?
 

MrFilthyIke said:
"3rd edition rules, 1st edition lack of frickin' good sense"

Although I think the right answer is that the DM plays a bigger role in a simpler set of rules, MrFilthyIke totally wins the prize for making me spill a cup of coffee laughing.
 

die_kluge said:
I'm not intending to start a flamewar here, but I am just legitimately perplexed as to why people would choose to play 1st edition over 3rd, when 3rd is just so much more superior in so many ways.

Sigh, yes, 3rd edtion is superior. You've stated so many times. Hope you don't mind if this inferior DM pulls out his much more inferior 1st edition rulebooks and gets ready to play.

Having opinions is a great thing. Stating an opinion as fact is not.

I prefer 1st edition. That's my taste. The games play differently.

Some people prefer an apple straight from the tree. Others only want it covered with caramel and nuts, placed on a stick and tasting like candy. Who can to say which is better?
 

1e was less concerned with issues of game balance, character customization, or story arcs. Adventures in 1e were generally much more visceral romps through more static environments.

These characteristics were partly a product of the rules themselves, but they also reflected a different type of expectation on the part of the players. 1e was more about getting power through magical loot and raw increases in a few basic things like AC and HP.

Today, it's more about crafting characters through a chinese menu of feats and prestige classes. Players already have their characters' entire futures worked out from the first session (I'm gonna get 5 levels of this, 6 levels of that, PrC this, PrC that.... out 20 levels). Heck, there's folks on the Wizards boards for whom just making up these combos IS their hobby.

Can you imagine that 25 years ago? If somebody told me he had that all worked out, I'd have said he must be playing with some Monty Haul DM, if he's so sure he's going to live that long and get that high!

I'm not saying either one is right or wrong, better or worse. It's just a totally different set of values and expectations.

However, I also agree that older gamers will invoke the phrase "1e feel" to simply reflect their nostalgia for a time when the game was young, and now-cliche scenarios were still new and exciting.

Carl
 

jodyjohnson said:
For us the 1st edition feel is all about the modules. We don't get misty about the rulebooks. But the modules have a different feel.
Since the only two companies consistantly producing modules are Goodman with their DCCs and Necro, it seem to me that 3e feel is now almost totally devoted to 1e feel. Esp. where modules are concerned.


Aaron
 

Mythmere1 said:
Although I think the right answer is that the DM plays a bigger role in a simpler set of rules, MrFilthyIke totally wins the prize for making me spill a cup of coffee laughing.

I've always beleived that dungeon-crawling adventures were a remarkabling foolish lot.

Cleric with wisdom my butt. :)
 

die_kluge said:
So, if I understand the crux of what your saying is that basically both systems suck, so might as well play the one you're more familiar with?

:D It might be more diplomatic to say that I think they are both very good systems, I just happen to like 1e better.

die_kluge said:
But that still doesn't answer the question as to what "1st edition feel" is, exactly.

Part of the problem with this is that 1e fans will argue about this. 1e was around from 1977 to 1988, and there was a definite different in 'feel' in those products before about 1983 and after. There's a definite different in feel between, say, the GDQ modules of 1978, the Dragonlance modules of 1984, and the Forgotten Realm products of 1988.

And further, what kind of products are you talking about? Rules? Adventures?

I think that when most people are talking about '1st edition feel' they are referring to the core three rulebooks, the fairly early adventure modules (pre-I6 Ravenloft), and the Greyhawk campaign setting. That's certainly what I'm referring to. Someone else might think of the more story-based adventure modules of Tracy Hickman from the mid-80's. I like the first, and really don't like the second.

die_kluge said:
Or, a better question might be - can the 3rd edition publishers that produce games which have a "1st edition" feel truly recreate it using 3rd edition rules?

From what I've seen, there have been some valiant attempts, but no real bullseyes.

R.A.
 

I think part of the 1st edition feel has to do with a higher emphasis on sword and sorcery literary themes rather than higher fantasy -- and being willing to develop and explore older themes rather than expecting non-archetypal challenges all the time.

Example:
1979: "Cool! This is just like being in the Conan comic book!"
1989: "This is a total rip-off of the Conan setting."
 

Some elements of the 1E feel:

1. Amateurish rules system. I'm not criticizing - I'm just noting that the art of rpg design has improved dramatically in the past 30 years. In 1E days, if you needed rules for a specific situation, you made something up. Even if TSR published an official rule, it rarely used the same mechanic as another rule. The whole system was very ad-hoc, relying on GM's and players to keep the whole mess working. This tended to create a feel where anything was possible, but nothing made much sense.

You also had a LOT of rules arguments. I remember sometimes I would talk my group into taking a break from D&D to play wargames - because the wargames at least had fixed rules and we knew what could and couldn't be done in the game. Any given D&D session was much more a guess - you could never be sure what a GM would rule.

Rules systems today tend to be much more coherent, unified, and comprehensive. Sometimes even elegant. But they also tend to be more restrictive. Instead of arguing that something "can't be done" because it makes no sense, we argue that it "can't be done" because of the rules. As someone else posted, in 1E days the GM was "god", today the rules tend to fill this role.

2. Expendable characters and monsters. This is not true of all campaigns, but certainly in many. Sending a party of 6-8 characters into the dungeon and coming out with 2 wasn't uncommon. Death happened all the time. Monsters usually fought to the death and often lacked any motivation other than to fight adventurers.

3. Verisimilitude? What verisimilitude? One campaign I played in briefly had Cylons as guards for the baron. EGG wrote an article for The Strategic Review called Sturmgeschutz and Sorcery, in which nazis fought trolls and evil high priests. The well-known Barrier Peaks module mixed Metamorphosis Alpha (a pre-cursor to Gamma World) with D&D. The First Fantasy Campaign, based on Blackmoor, had a dungeon guarded by elves with holy water hoses to keep undead from following adventurers as they left the dungeon.

4. Diablo-style play. Kick in the door, kill things, take their stuff, rinse and repeat. This was standard. Roleplaying was in its infancy and it took time for most groups to change styles. And the high death rate of characters (see point 2 above) tended to discourage roleplaying also.

5. GM vs Players. GM's were "god" and only bad players disagreed with the GM, even when so many GM's were clearly lousy. The rules often encouraged GM's to "get" the characters, using cursed items, stealing their stuff, setting up killer traps (save or die), and so on. EGG had a big influence here - one has only to read some of his Dragon articles or read through Tomb of Horrors to see this style in all its glory.

6. Power. C'mon, admit it? How many people here never played, even once, in a game where the party had artifacts, took on gods, killed Tiamat, etc.? Monty Haul became infamous for a reason.

7. Wonder. Everything was new, strange, exotic. The lack of comprehensive rules, e.g., item creation, led GM's to come up with some pretty amazing, orginal stuff. Also some pretty unbalanced, unfair, absurd stuff. But that was part of the fun. ;)
 

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