What the...

[Piratecat]

Do you use something different Piratecat? A sudden metamagic variant I would like to hear about!

Nope, I use the UA method (including limiting the level of spells that can be affected.)

And holy cow, has it improved the game. It adds tactical complexity to the spellcasters, who now need to apportion their valuable metamagic uses for the times that will work best. They really feel like they're getting their feat's worth because suddenly they're using the feat instead of letting it sit there fallow.

 

[harperscout]

What I, and another member of our current party are arguing is that arcane spell casters don't need anymore help adding tactical complexity to their already robust options while at the table.

We were looking at it from the perspective that a 12th level Sorcerer is far better than a 12th level fighter in 90% of situations which involve combat. The sudden meta-magic feats make that about 99%.

From our perspective, its the fighter that should have sudden maximized strike, or sudden True Strike... Or something to keep them close to the curve with the arcane spell casters.

 

[Piratecat]

Have you seen the PHB2? It's got high-lvl fighter feats that might be what you're looking for.

Speaking personally, at once a day I think the sudden metamagic feats are weak; I'd never take one for a character.

 

[Liquidsabre]

From our perspective, its the fighter that should have sudden maximized strike, or sudden True Strike... Or something to keep them close to the curve with the arcane spell casters.

Thanks to the introduction of several new mid and high-level fighter feats in the PHB II, the situation for the fighter has certainly improved. I'd recommend checking those out, there was definately a push to "even the keel" so to speak as far as fighter types go in the book. Very cool. Though I was hoping for a few more interesting Tactical feats.

 

[MarkB]

The problem for such 1/day ablities for NPCs is, that usually it's not a real limit for an NPC. They are designed with PCs in mind, which usually run into multiple situations, where the ability could be useful, but can only use it in one of them. NPCs do not normally have this limitation.

For PCs the sudden metamagic feats are probably balanced (though breaking the spell cap can still cause problems), but for NPCs they might actually be a bit too powerful.

Bye
Thanee

Under a completely fair DM, some NPCs with these feats will already have used them on an earlier encounter when the PCs encounter them, whilst others will try and save them in case of a later encounter unless the PCs are obviously much more powerful.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Speaking personally, at once a day I think the sudden metamagic feats are weak; I'd never take one for a character.

I thought so too myself when I first looked at them, but the ability to use metamagic feats at your highest spell level is pretty powerful. I ran an evoker from 4-8th in RTTEE with sudden widen and sudden maximize and I had an excellent time figuring out when to apply those feats and to which spell, from a widened grease to maximized flaming sphere or a maximized scorching ray followed by a widened glitterdust. Being able to cast a widened and maximized fireball if need be 1/day at 5th level was nothing to scoff at, if somewhat limited in utility.

I had alot of fun with those sudden feats and found that they complimented the regular metamagic feats 3/day spontaneous use nicely for my metamagic-based wizard. Admittedly, those feats see a decline in utility as you get higher in levels though, being able to cast so many more spells/day means being able to metamagic a spell 1/day gets less exciting. Still, being able to maximize at your highest spell level gets you alot of oomph.

 

[harperscout]

Where the Sudden Maximize really showed its true colors was with the disentigrate spell. The 12th level wizard blasted the leader of another adventuring party with his sudden maximized disentigrate spell and the fight was pretty much over before it had even started... something crazy like 140+ points of damage was sustained and we were just sitting there, staring at each other thinking... "did that really just happen?"

A point that Wmasters made is where I think my frustration is seeded... we rarely fight more than one battle a day... sometimes it isn't even one a day (in game time). With spaced battles like that it has made it increasingly harder to stomach the far greater power of the tactical battle platform (i.e. 12th level sorcerer) over the fighter.

 

[Kurotowa]

A point that Wmasters made is where I think my frustration is seeded... we rarely fight more than one battle a day... sometimes it isn't even one a day (in game time). With spaced battles like that it has made it increasingly harder to stomach the far greater power of the tactical battle platform (i.e. 12th level sorcerer) over the fighter.

Well, that's D&D all over, ain't it? It's carefully balanced for a single sweet spot, and the more you deviate from that spot the more balance issues arise. Endurance classes shine when there are a lot of small encounters (fighters, rogues, monks). Performance classes shine when there are a few big encounters (traditional casters, psions, barbarians). Go to much either way and the other class will suffer.

I think WotC is actually starting to offer a solution by putting out alternatives to the performance classes. Warlocks, binders, dragon shamans, and the incarnum classes are all endurance classes that can fill the role of the fire-and-forget casters. It would be interesting for a DM to try a game just using those and none of the PHB casters.

 

[Infiniti2000]

And holy cow, has it improved the game. It adds tactical complexity to the spellcasters, who now need to apportion their valuable metamagic uses for the times that will work best. They really feel like they're getting their feat's worth because suddenly they're using the feat instead of letting it sit there fallow.
. . .
Speaking personally, at once a day I think the sudden metamagic feats are weak; I'd never take one for a character.

Do you see the contradiction in these two posts? If it improves the game so much and all your spellcasting PC's get their feat's worth even at 1/day, why do you still consider it so weak such that you would never take it? It seems like there's a significant difference in your DM style vs. whoever DM's a game you play in.

My initial gut reaction on the feats were that they were strong, but I never restricted them and none of my players ever even considered them a viable option. I do think, however, that divine metamagic (without the cap limit) was too strong, despite the multiple costs (turn attempts and two feats). I say that from experience as a player with a cleric.

 

[shilsen]

Do you see the contradiction in these two posts? If it improves the game so much and all your spellcasting PC's get their feat's worth even at 1/day, why do you still consider it so weak such that you would never take it? It seems like there's a significant difference in your DM style vs. whoever DM's a game you play in.

I don't see what you're reading. Did you miss that the posts are about different rules? The first post says that the 3/day spontaneous metamagic rule is better. The second one says the 1/day rule is weaker. Where's the contradiction?