doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
A dwarf and an elf aren’t the same regardless of attribute bonuses.
D&D 5E What To Do With Racial ASIs?
- Thread starter DND_Reborn
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Worrgrendel
Adventurer
Here is my take on it. I think that there is enough (could add a little more on some maybe) flavor to the various races outside of stat increases that differentiates them from each other. The stat increases represent a generalization of that race overall. Generalization is for NPC's, not PC's. PC's are all about going outside the norm for everything they can do. So a Goliath NPC represents his great strength by having that +2 STR baked into his NPC stat array which makes him "stronger" than the average (NPC) human/elf/dwarf/whatever.
So now tie stat increases to Class and Background. As has been suggested I would not tie a +2 or +1 stat increase to the save proficiencies of that class as that could hurt some builds. The DEX Fighter for example. Giving him a +2 STR does nothing for him. So for each class give, say, a +2 to one primary stat predetermined by class. Maybe Fighters get a choice of STR, DEX, or CON. Then they get a +1 to any other stat of their choice. Backgrounds would then give another +1 appropriate to the Background that cannot stack where the +2 from Class went. So you could get say +1 INT from Scholar but not +1 STR (but Worrgrendel, those books are HEAVY) but you could not put the +1 into INT if that is where you put your +2 from Class. I feel like this would open up more Race/Class combinations for most players that might not be explored otherwise because of the "I gotta max my primary stat or I'm behind the curve" thought process. I know that some people already don't min/max like that (we have a STR based Gnome Fighter in our current campaign) but I feel it does make for more flavorful options (Dwarf Wizard, Half Orc Bard, etc). I also feel like having one +2 and 2 floating +1's helps out those Classes and Subclasses that suffer from MAD.
What about inhuman Elven agility you say, like Legolas? Well, lets think about this for a minute. If you are making a badass Elf Archer like Legolas that skateboards down Olphant trunks and stairs you are maxing your DEX anyhow so why does it matter if the +2 came from Race or Class? But, say you are making an Elf that dumps DEX. Based on the Race giving +2 DEX and you were using point buy, that means your 8 is now a 10. How inhumanely agile is that? Average human is the answer so that +2 DEX is not really representing any kind of inhuman agility normally found in Elves. Plus, maybe I wanted to play an clumsy Elf? I guess he's still clumsy by Elf standards and that just means that Humans are being stereotyped by Elves as being "clumsy"? No thanks.
So now tie stat increases to Class and Background. As has been suggested I would not tie a +2 or +1 stat increase to the save proficiencies of that class as that could hurt some builds. The DEX Fighter for example. Giving him a +2 STR does nothing for him. So for each class give, say, a +2 to one primary stat predetermined by class. Maybe Fighters get a choice of STR, DEX, or CON. Then they get a +1 to any other stat of their choice. Backgrounds would then give another +1 appropriate to the Background that cannot stack where the +2 from Class went. So you could get say +1 INT from Scholar but not +1 STR (but Worrgrendel, those books are HEAVY) but you could not put the +1 into INT if that is where you put your +2 from Class. I feel like this would open up more Race/Class combinations for most players that might not be explored otherwise because of the "I gotta max my primary stat or I'm behind the curve" thought process. I know that some people already don't min/max like that (we have a STR based Gnome Fighter in our current campaign) but I feel it does make for more flavorful options (Dwarf Wizard, Half Orc Bard, etc). I also feel like having one +2 and 2 floating +1's helps out those Classes and Subclasses that suffer from MAD.
What about inhuman Elven agility you say, like Legolas? Well, lets think about this for a minute. If you are making a badass Elf Archer like Legolas that skateboards down Olphant trunks and stairs you are maxing your DEX anyhow so why does it matter if the +2 came from Race or Class? But, say you are making an Elf that dumps DEX. Based on the Race giving +2 DEX and you were using point buy, that means your 8 is now a 10. How inhumanely agile is that? Average human is the answer so that +2 DEX is not really representing any kind of inhuman agility normally found in Elves. Plus, maybe I wanted to play an clumsy Elf? I guess he's still clumsy by Elf standards and that just means that Humans are being stereotyped by Elves as being "clumsy"? No thanks.
CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
I say move 'em to the background.
I say again, move 'em to the background.
It just makes the most sense to me to have ASIs be part of their background instead of their body type. A dwarf that spent his pre-adventuring life defending his home from invaders (Soldier background) would probably have +2 to Con and +1 to Str...but a dwarf that spent his formative years in the archives mapping the ore veins and working in the metallurgy lab (Sage background) would have +2 Int and +1 Wis, for example.
An elf that spent her pre-adventuring life defending her home from invaders (Soldier background) would reasonably have +2 Con and +1 Str, and an elf that spent her formative years in the archives studying magic and history of her people (Sage background) would reasonably have +2 Int and +1 Wis...just like the dwarf example.
My two coppers, anyway.
I say again, move 'em to the background.
It just makes the most sense to me to have ASIs be part of their background instead of their body type. A dwarf that spent his pre-adventuring life defending his home from invaders (Soldier background) would probably have +2 to Con and +1 to Str...but a dwarf that spent his formative years in the archives mapping the ore veins and working in the metallurgy lab (Sage background) would have +2 Int and +1 Wis, for example.
An elf that spent her pre-adventuring life defending her home from invaders (Soldier background) would reasonably have +2 Con and +1 Str, and an elf that spent her formative years in the archives studying magic and history of her people (Sage background) would reasonably have +2 Int and +1 Wis...just like the dwarf example.
My two coppers, anyway.
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Crimson Longinus
Legend
So the reason is matter that if it does not come from being an elf, a dwarf can match it. So elves are not more agile than dwarves. Some of us want the races to have things in which they can be better than others.
CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
We agree with the end result, but we have different approaches. I want the backgrounds to have things in which they can be better than others. I want Sages to be the smartest, Soldiers to be the toughest, Adepts to be the wisest, and Charlatans to be the most charming.
In my mind Legolas isn't a crack shot because all elves are born that way; he is a crack shot because he has the Soldier (Archer) background and has spent years and years practicing with the longbow.
Crimson Longinus
Legend
I think how you assign your points in the point buy are for representing individual background and other such personal differences, whereas ability modifiers are to represent biological differences. Bears are not stronger than wolves due their background, they're stronger due their biology. The wolves are smarter than bears for the same reason.
CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
This is all my personal preference, of course. If you really need biology to matter more than training or experience, the rules-as-written are going to serve you well.
For my table, I'd flip that. I want training and experience to be more important than biology.
Worrgrendel
Adventurer
So you are saying ALL Elves should be able to slide down a dying oliphant truck in the middle of a raging battle and no Dwarf could ever do that? Again, I'm not talking about your average Elf or average Dwarf. We are talking about PC's that completely buck the system. I've seen videos of real, actual human beings do some amazing feats of dexterity that no other human can match and your typical (non-Legolas) Elf has no chance to replicate. So why couldn't a Dwarf who dedicated his life to training be able to do the same thing? Stop thinking in terms of generalization. That is for NPC's. If you want races to be better at things than other races then you need to get rid of stat boosts as a means of differentiation because everyone's stats cap at 20 in the end so it doesn't ultimately matter (except for Barbarians, who at 20 can cap at 24 in STR and CON; wait, wut? A Class that gives a stat bonus?!? Madness!!! Stat bonus come from Race only because: Grognard!!!).
Edit: FWIW I am a Grognard and this is not a personal attack on you.
Crimson Longinus
Legend
Sigh
No, not all elves do not need to be able to do that. But the races have niches, things they're supposed to be good at. So the situation I want to avoid is where a player chooses a race for its niche (say an elf for dexterity in order to make Legolas) and then another player chooses another race such as dwarf and makes a character which is just as good at the elf's supposed niche. Or one person want's to be 'big and strong half-orc' but turns out the party's halfling is just as strong. I want the players be able to choose the 'strong race' and be the strongest (if they want), choose 'agile race' and be most dexterous etc.
Barbarian ability boosts is fine, it is a capstone ability when the character is basically some sort of a primal demigod. Granted it is a bit weird because IIRC no other class has anything similar.
Giltonio_Santos
Hero
I voted to leave them alone, but it really depends on the rest of the racial traits. If we'll just move to a model where you put your stats wherever you like, but leave the rest of the racial traits as they are, that would make many traditional race-class combos obsolete. As I mentioned in the other thread, a mountain dwarf would make for a much better wizard than a high elf, if they both got to choose where to put their ability boosts while keeping the other racial traits.
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