Eternalknight
First Post
I was just thinking about this today. Do you think using the Star Wars style VP/WP is better than hit points? Defence imstead of AC? Is the skill system unrealistic to you?
What would you do to make the d20 system more realistic?
- Thread starter Eternalknight
- Start date
CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
I think the D&D skills system is unrealistic, yes, but it's close enough as far as I'm concerned -- I've seen no better method that's as easy to use.
I hate VP/WP with a passion, and find them even less realistic than hp. A class defense bonus is a fine idea, but the SW system feels tacked onto D&D; I wish it was done a little better. (For example, the class bonus not stacking with armor, or even the d20 Modern max class bonus if nonproficient, is inelegant.)
I hate VP/WP with a passion, and find them even less realistic than hp. A class defense bonus is a fine idea, but the SW system feels tacked onto D&D; I wish it was done a little better. (For example, the class bonus not stacking with armor, or even the d20 Modern max class bonus if nonproficient, is inelegant.)
A'koss
Explorer
I know Andy Collins is working on a product that will incorporate Armor = DR for 2004 so you may see something there that'll be helpful.
Skills? I like the way d20 handles it for the most part but I do think that some of the skills could use some balance tweaking (Diplomacy, Perform, Tumble). I also don't believe in cross-class skills as anyone should be able to learn anything with equal ease so long as they're willing to put the effort in. Another poster on this message board had an idea that I thought made a lot of sense - Adventurers automatically gain ranks in certain skills as they advance - spot, listen, sense motive and I think search as well. This would also help stymie the disparity between these key "opposing" skills at higher levels.
VP/WP I don't think are appropriate for D&D, HPs work fine for me. The game is lethal enough (at least before easy resurrections become common) without introducing new and quicker ways to die.
3e Combat and Movement I have larger issues with. The core 3e way is fine for the general public, but I like a little more in the way of tactical options and believable movement across the battlefield. I'm hoping that the Miniature's Handbook will be the silver bullet I'm looking for (phase-based movement?).
Cheers,
A'koss.
Skills? I like the way d20 handles it for the most part but I do think that some of the skills could use some balance tweaking (Diplomacy, Perform, Tumble). I also don't believe in cross-class skills as anyone should be able to learn anything with equal ease so long as they're willing to put the effort in. Another poster on this message board had an idea that I thought made a lot of sense - Adventurers automatically gain ranks in certain skills as they advance - spot, listen, sense motive and I think search as well. This would also help stymie the disparity between these key "opposing" skills at higher levels.
VP/WP I don't think are appropriate for D&D, HPs work fine for me. The game is lethal enough (at least before easy resurrections become common) without introducing new and quicker ways to die.
3e Combat and Movement I have larger issues with. The core 3e way is fine for the general public, but I like a little more in the way of tactical options and believable movement across the battlefield. I'm hoping that the Miniature's Handbook will be the silver bullet I'm looking for (phase-based movement?).
Cheers,
A'koss.
Blacksad
Explorer
The biggest realism problem that bother me is armor that grant damage reduction, meaning that dagger are ineffective against plate armor, while in fact dagger were made for the express purpose of piercing through this kind of armor.
So I consider AC to be much better on this (plus it doesn't require substraction, something that I can't do anymore since I've stopped my 2nd edition games
)
Autofire is problematic in most d20 system game (except Dragonstar and Deadland d20 IIRC). The problem is that autofire is not always used to deal more damage, but to ensure that you do damage (kind of like the french anti-aircraft defense, poor targeting system, yet reliable, when a plane is detected, a wall of fire is put on its path to ensure that it get hit, more effective than a good targeting system, which mean most of the time that the plane is aware of the targeting system and can retaliate with accuracy). I think that the system is something like a +2 bonus to hit, and for each 4 point by which you exceed the AC, you do one more die of damage.
I think that weapon easier to use, or which had more piercing power than their primitive counterpart (crossbow & gun Vs bows), should get some kind of Bab bonus that do not stack with Bab.
i.e. a gun would get a +5 Bab bonus, meaning that a 1st level character would be much more efficient with a gun than with a bow, while they do similar damage (a hole in your body). It would still allow a 5th level archer to be as effective on close combat as a 5th level gunslinger, if both have a +5 Bab, something that I want to keep, because I consider 5th level character to be more on the legendary side than 1st level commoner. And the advantage of the gun, once someone has learned how to put a primitive weapon to efficient use, would be range and easy to hide weapon and ammo.
On VP/WP vs HP, through video games, I'm acustomed to have fantasy heroes with hundred of hit point, though I would prefer the VP/WP for modern or future heroes (unless they fight in battle armor: Samus in metroid? warhammer 40k?). Apparently from Ranger Wickett experience, saying vitality is a bit longuish, and he uses the name hit point instead, and do not bother with long description on how damage is not dealt (something that bother me with d20 modern with the damage threshold), perhaps using the name Wound Point and Dodge Point would make a clear and easy to use difference?
I also think that the system of 3 category of damage in Alternity was a good things (Mortal, Wound, Fatigue), but it's more Grim & Gritty than the standard d20 (though, it would probably make a very good alternative to the WP/VP system). The weapon did different damage, and different type of damage based on degree of succes, to put this back in d20 you'll probably need to have higher threat range, and consider 4 different result based on the roll: failure (under the AC), success (higher than the target AC), good succes (in the threat range), crit (in the threat range, and confirmed crit with a second roll).
The influence of gama (mentioned in Starship for Alternity) on near light speed movement of space vehicle is something that should be mentionned for any space based game (it tells you that it becomes harder and harder to accelerate). And when something like this is mentionned, you know that the hard Sci-fi rules will be accurate (no loop, or sonic bomb in space).
For skill, something realistic wouldn't be fun (I kind of play with the nerves of other when I only need to study for half an hour for a system architecture exam, while other studied several hours, and I get better result
). Yet, it should be noted that the standard d20 skill system is no less realistic than other skill system.
The typical system increase the cost of improving the skill (it cost 1 point for 1 rank, then you need 2 points for the next rank etc...), which is realistic. The part that isn't realistic, if the system has a large number of skill rank possible, is the possibility that a character learn basic knoweldge of almost all skill (though most skill system have a low number of rank, and you put max rank in your signature skill, you might improve this by one or two ranks, and the rest of the point are used to flesh your character).
In d20 system, this is hidden through the Xp chart (it becomes harder and harder to get a level), which I find in some aspect more elegant than other system with a large number of rank (as it is easier to keep track of skill rank), and it also have the advantage of putting an equal difficulty between learning something new and improving, the big drawback is a character putting all of its skill point in one new skill with a new level. It can be cool for heroes acustomed to travel through by foot, to have the rogue learn quickly how to use that flying machine coming from an ancient civilization, though it is not realistic.
For hard to learn skill you might want to increase their cost (a bit like cross class skill), with up to 4 point per rank, but I think that it is much simpler to simply consider that it's probably those that learn quickly who choose those skill (otherwise you have to bother yourself by having different typical DC range for each category of skill, between the easy to learn and the not so easy to learn).
Another thing that would be more realistic, yet more cumbersome, would be to reduce hardness by 1 or more point each time that an object is hit.
Though, as I have mentionned, I do not like substraction anymore
(that really slow down the game).
So having perhaps only an AC and an hardness rating for object could be something worth considering, if you hit, and the damage dealt are higher than the hardness, you remove a number of hardness point equal to the number of dice rolled for the damage.
Or perhaps better, using the damage system from MnM (weapon have a damage rating and items a damage save, and they roll a d20 each time that a weapon hit them vs this damage rating as a DC). Though that gives a non-standard feel to the rule if the whole system isn't using damage save (it mights lead to difficulties for remembering the rule, kind of like the difficulties I have with bull rush and grappling).
Also, there is a lot of things worth considering with vehicles (object that can be piloted), because you can have many pervert side effect based on the hit point system you use.
Basically you have two main system (which have their own subsystem afterward).
One, Vehicles use the same hit point (or vitality) as the character.
The advantage, is that if a player wants to use its gun or sword, or to fire flaming arrows against a ship, you know exactly how it affect the vehicle. You can also easily use spell that heal construct (or affect them in some way), on vehicles.
If you use standard hit points with character (even with damage threshold from d20 modern), and you keep hit point on par with the damage that weapons deals, you can quickly comes to situation were the same effect destroy a tank, and leave the character perfectly healthy (well, with half of its hit point lost).
Or with D&D, your half-Orc Barbarian with Power Attack can reduce a flagship to tiny bits in a few minutes.
That can be solved by giving a lot of hit points to vehicles, but I think that it might slow down the game (ships in swashbuckling adventures can easily have more than a thousand hit points, while each canon deal around 5d6, with perhaps a few dozen canon, each requiring a roll, well, you can use the mass batlle system inside to deal with that, but it still doesn't feel quite right)
Now, if you use a gritty hit poit system, or WP/VP, where area effect affect the wound points directly, it's probably a good system (Dragonstar use such a system, with flagship in the thousand of hit point, though character use typical D&D hit point, it will be this system that will be used in Babylon 5, where characters use gritty hit point).
To conclude, this is good, because you know how different scales of vehicles interact with each other. You have a few bad side effect at high level, and a character who migh have dodge/vitality/luck points to ignore some bullet (luck point are fun: Player:"I'm out of luck!"), will be at higher risk inside a vehicle (depending on how you see it, if you think that the character should or shouldn't have a lot of effect on the vehicle this is good or bad, if you want to have character with a lot of influence, only if they know how to pilot a vehicle, you might use such rules as using the pilot roll to replace the vehicle AC).
Two: Vehicles use a different kind of damage than character (ala Mega Damage from Palladium), this is how Sea of Blood and the soon to be released in english Archipelago setting deal with ships.
The big disadvantage is that it's harder to have a fair role for everyone in the group (you can use thing like fighter can make a profession artillery roll to add a dice of damage to canon or catapult, wizards doing doing a dice of damage per spell level, and consider new effect for some spell that might "heal" or help a ship that's for a fantasy or modern setting, in a future setting it's easier to have each PC take a role: Pilot, Weapon, Sensor/Jamming, Engineer/Repair, Defense system, Communication/Coordination (with other vessels), and fighter pilot). It has also one big advantage, with a luck point, wound point system, you can directly add your luck point to the vehicle, and treat the vehicle as a character/monster, making Macross/Robotech scenario way easier to do.
Something that can be done with both system, is to treat vehicles as monster, it gives an easy to use statblock, on which you can add template. It's the system used for Mecha Compendium (vehicle with the same hit point as characters) and Archipelago (vehicles use a different scale).
That's all of the way that I can think of to have a more realistic d20 system (in the sense that a realistic system doesn't break the suspension of disbelief of the players).
You see that there is many option to have a believable system, pick and choose what would be best for you and your player, with almost no conversion to do yourself as most of those have been done in a book or another. Though I should point that I haven't tried all combination, and I'm still not sure of the best system for me
PS: perhaps it was a bit long?
So I consider AC to be much better on this (plus it doesn't require substraction, something that I can't do anymore since I've stopped my 2nd edition games
)Autofire is problematic in most d20 system game (except Dragonstar and Deadland d20 IIRC). The problem is that autofire is not always used to deal more damage, but to ensure that you do damage (kind of like the french anti-aircraft defense, poor targeting system, yet reliable, when a plane is detected, a wall of fire is put on its path to ensure that it get hit, more effective than a good targeting system, which mean most of the time that the plane is aware of the targeting system and can retaliate with accuracy). I think that the system is something like a +2 bonus to hit, and for each 4 point by which you exceed the AC, you do one more die of damage.
I think that weapon easier to use, or which had more piercing power than their primitive counterpart (crossbow & gun Vs bows), should get some kind of Bab bonus that do not stack with Bab.
i.e. a gun would get a +5 Bab bonus, meaning that a 1st level character would be much more efficient with a gun than with a bow, while they do similar damage (a hole in your body). It would still allow a 5th level archer to be as effective on close combat as a 5th level gunslinger, if both have a +5 Bab, something that I want to keep, because I consider 5th level character to be more on the legendary side than 1st level commoner. And the advantage of the gun, once someone has learned how to put a primitive weapon to efficient use, would be range and easy to hide weapon and ammo.
On VP/WP vs HP, through video games, I'm acustomed to have fantasy heroes with hundred of hit point, though I would prefer the VP/WP for modern or future heroes (unless they fight in battle armor: Samus in metroid? warhammer 40k?). Apparently from Ranger Wickett experience, saying vitality is a bit longuish, and he uses the name hit point instead, and do not bother with long description on how damage is not dealt (something that bother me with d20 modern with the damage threshold), perhaps using the name Wound Point and Dodge Point would make a clear and easy to use difference?
I also think that the system of 3 category of damage in Alternity was a good things (Mortal, Wound, Fatigue), but it's more Grim & Gritty than the standard d20 (though, it would probably make a very good alternative to the WP/VP system). The weapon did different damage, and different type of damage based on degree of succes, to put this back in d20 you'll probably need to have higher threat range, and consider 4 different result based on the roll: failure (under the AC), success (higher than the target AC), good succes (in the threat range), crit (in the threat range, and confirmed crit with a second roll).
The influence of gama (mentioned in Starship for Alternity) on near light speed movement of space vehicle is something that should be mentionned for any space based game (it tells you that it becomes harder and harder to accelerate). And when something like this is mentionned, you know that the hard Sci-fi rules will be accurate (no loop, or sonic bomb in space).
For skill, something realistic wouldn't be fun (I kind of play with the nerves of other when I only need to study for half an hour for a system architecture exam, while other studied several hours, and I get better result
). Yet, it should be noted that the standard d20 skill system is no less realistic than other skill system.The typical system increase the cost of improving the skill (it cost 1 point for 1 rank, then you need 2 points for the next rank etc...), which is realistic. The part that isn't realistic, if the system has a large number of skill rank possible, is the possibility that a character learn basic knoweldge of almost all skill (though most skill system have a low number of rank, and you put max rank in your signature skill, you might improve this by one or two ranks, and the rest of the point are used to flesh your character).
In d20 system, this is hidden through the Xp chart (it becomes harder and harder to get a level), which I find in some aspect more elegant than other system with a large number of rank (as it is easier to keep track of skill rank), and it also have the advantage of putting an equal difficulty between learning something new and improving, the big drawback is a character putting all of its skill point in one new skill with a new level. It can be cool for heroes acustomed to travel through by foot, to have the rogue learn quickly how to use that flying machine coming from an ancient civilization, though it is not realistic.
For hard to learn skill you might want to increase their cost (a bit like cross class skill), with up to 4 point per rank, but I think that it is much simpler to simply consider that it's probably those that learn quickly who choose those skill (otherwise you have to bother yourself by having different typical DC range for each category of skill, between the easy to learn and the not so easy to learn).
Another thing that would be more realistic, yet more cumbersome, would be to reduce hardness by 1 or more point each time that an object is hit.
Though, as I have mentionned, I do not like substraction anymore
(that really slow down the game).So having perhaps only an AC and an hardness rating for object could be something worth considering, if you hit, and the damage dealt are higher than the hardness, you remove a number of hardness point equal to the number of dice rolled for the damage.
Or perhaps better, using the damage system from MnM (weapon have a damage rating and items a damage save, and they roll a d20 each time that a weapon hit them vs this damage rating as a DC). Though that gives a non-standard feel to the rule if the whole system isn't using damage save (it mights lead to difficulties for remembering the rule, kind of like the difficulties I have with bull rush and grappling).
Also, there is a lot of things worth considering with vehicles (object that can be piloted), because you can have many pervert side effect based on the hit point system you use.
Basically you have two main system (which have their own subsystem afterward).
One, Vehicles use the same hit point (or vitality) as the character.
The advantage, is that if a player wants to use its gun or sword, or to fire flaming arrows against a ship, you know exactly how it affect the vehicle. You can also easily use spell that heal construct (or affect them in some way), on vehicles.
If you use standard hit points with character (even with damage threshold from d20 modern), and you keep hit point on par with the damage that weapons deals, you can quickly comes to situation were the same effect destroy a tank, and leave the character perfectly healthy (well, with half of its hit point lost).
Or with D&D, your half-Orc Barbarian with Power Attack can reduce a flagship to tiny bits in a few minutes.
That can be solved by giving a lot of hit points to vehicles, but I think that it might slow down the game (ships in swashbuckling adventures can easily have more than a thousand hit points, while each canon deal around 5d6, with perhaps a few dozen canon, each requiring a roll, well, you can use the mass batlle system inside to deal with that, but it still doesn't feel quite right)
Now, if you use a gritty hit poit system, or WP/VP, where area effect affect the wound points directly, it's probably a good system (Dragonstar use such a system, with flagship in the thousand of hit point, though character use typical D&D hit point, it will be this system that will be used in Babylon 5, where characters use gritty hit point).
To conclude, this is good, because you know how different scales of vehicles interact with each other. You have a few bad side effect at high level, and a character who migh have dodge/vitality/luck points to ignore some bullet (luck point are fun: Player:"I'm out of luck!"), will be at higher risk inside a vehicle (depending on how you see it, if you think that the character should or shouldn't have a lot of effect on the vehicle this is good or bad, if you want to have character with a lot of influence, only if they know how to pilot a vehicle, you might use such rules as using the pilot roll to replace the vehicle AC).
Two: Vehicles use a different kind of damage than character (ala Mega Damage from Palladium), this is how Sea of Blood and the soon to be released in english Archipelago setting deal with ships.
The big disadvantage is that it's harder to have a fair role for everyone in the group (you can use thing like fighter can make a profession artillery roll to add a dice of damage to canon or catapult, wizards doing doing a dice of damage per spell level, and consider new effect for some spell that might "heal" or help a ship that's for a fantasy or modern setting, in a future setting it's easier to have each PC take a role: Pilot, Weapon, Sensor/Jamming, Engineer/Repair, Defense system, Communication/Coordination (with other vessels), and fighter pilot). It has also one big advantage, with a luck point, wound point system, you can directly add your luck point to the vehicle, and treat the vehicle as a character/monster, making Macross/Robotech scenario way easier to do.
Something that can be done with both system, is to treat vehicles as monster, it gives an easy to use statblock, on which you can add template. It's the system used for Mecha Compendium (vehicle with the same hit point as characters) and Archipelago (vehicles use a different scale).
That's all of the way that I can think of to have a more realistic d20 system (in the sense that a realistic system doesn't break the suspension of disbelief of the players).
You see that there is many option to have a believable system, pick and choose what would be best for you and your player, with almost no conversion to do yourself as most of those have been done in a book or another. Though I should point that I haven't tried all combination, and I'm still not sure of the best system for me
PS: perhaps it was a bit long?
My "gritty" Hp system:
AC & Hit Points work normally.
Characters at "Zero" Hit Points = Can only perform partial actions.
Characters at "negative" Hit Points (here's where it gets interesting):
Any damage taken below Zero Hp = Hp damage AND Temporary Con Damage.
Example: 2nd lvl PC with 15 Hp (Con score 13), hit for 18 pts damage. Character is now unconcious, Con score is now 11, Hit Points are at -4 (-2 from the 18 pts damage, -1 per level from the loss of Con score).
Doesn't matter how many "negative" hit points a character is at, They are alive until Con score = "Zero". Any further damage is both Hp damage AND Con score damage.
Con damage recovers at a rate of 1 per day.
Coming back from "near death": Any character who is brought unconcious from "negative" Hp is at -1 to ALL rolls (hit, damage, skill checks, saves, etc.) Also -1 to AC. This condition lasts for 1d6 hours. Characters can avoid this by making a Fortitude save (DC 10 + "negative Hp total" they were brought down to. Using, of course thier current Con score modifier for the save.
AC & Hit Points work normally.
Characters at "Zero" Hit Points = Can only perform partial actions.
Characters at "negative" Hit Points (here's where it gets interesting):
Any damage taken below Zero Hp = Hp damage AND Temporary Con Damage.
Example: 2nd lvl PC with 15 Hp (Con score 13), hit for 18 pts damage. Character is now unconcious, Con score is now 11, Hit Points are at -4 (-2 from the 18 pts damage, -1 per level from the loss of Con score).
Doesn't matter how many "negative" hit points a character is at, They are alive until Con score = "Zero". Any further damage is both Hp damage AND Con score damage.
Con damage recovers at a rate of 1 per day.
Coming back from "near death": Any character who is brought unconcious from "negative" Hp is at -1 to ALL rolls (hit, damage, skill checks, saves, etc.) Also -1 to AC. This condition lasts for 1d6 hours. Characters can avoid this by making a Fortitude save (DC 10 + "negative Hp total" they were brought down to. Using, of course thier current Con score modifier for the save.
danielinthwolvesden
First Post
Small pet peeves as regard the armour names in the PHB.
"Scale" was outmoded in ancient times. Last bastion of 'scale" was Late Roman standardbearers, who would wear it for traditional reasons. "brigantine" is the equivilant.
"Half plate"- there IS a type of armour called "half plate"- it is very late period, post firearm, and it is a cut down set of full Gothic plate. They had this right in 2nd Ed "Skills & powers". What they are talking about is eith "plate & mail" or "platemail", which is plate armour held together with chainmail.
"Studded leather" isn't TOO bad, but somebody really likes the covers of old "Thieves World" novels too much
. Just addeding some studs wouldn't help much. Either we are talking "cuirbolloi" (hardened leather) or light brigantine, or "scale" made with hard leather scales.
No big deal, but the stupid & wrong names make my teeth grate.
Oh, and there is no such thing as a "thorpe"- well, there is, but it is just another name for a "small village". There is a sociological difference (besides size) between Hamlet & Village, also.
"Scale" was outmoded in ancient times. Last bastion of 'scale" was Late Roman standardbearers, who would wear it for traditional reasons. "brigantine" is the equivilant.
"Half plate"- there IS a type of armour called "half plate"- it is very late period, post firearm, and it is a cut down set of full Gothic plate. They had this right in 2nd Ed "Skills & powers". What they are talking about is eith "plate & mail" or "platemail", which is plate armour held together with chainmail.
"Studded leather" isn't TOO bad, but somebody really likes the covers of old "Thieves World" novels too much
. Just addeding some studs wouldn't help much. Either we are talking "cuirbolloi" (hardened leather) or light brigantine, or "scale" made with hard leather scales.No big deal, but the stupid & wrong names make my teeth grate.
Oh, and there is no such thing as a "thorpe"- well, there is, but it is just another name for a "small village". There is a sociological difference (besides size) between Hamlet & Village, also.
