what would you want to see in a revised Weapon Chart?

[Bacon Bits]

Not really actually! That was my suspicion when I posted my question but I'm pleasantly surprised at the consistency.

I count 2 main buckets: 1) scrap the weapon chart and instead use universal damage dice, and 2) fix the inconsistencies in the current weapon chart.

Eh, I read that like saying the 2 buckets are: 1) Use something simpler, 2) Use something more complicated. That's obviously true the same way as "a number is either odd or even" is true. The issue I see is that there isn't even consensus about which of those it should be.

Some people want realism. Some want ease of play. Some want mechanical options. Some want mechanical balance. Some want the option for mechanical imbalance. Some people want throwbacks to edition A, edition B, game C, etc. Some people want old class/proficiency abilities rolled into weapons.

A lot of what people have suggested seem fundamentally incompatible.

 

[ClaytonCross]

1. All slashing weapons that are not heavy would all be finesse, +2 to hit and do -3 damage vs heavy armor making them great vs light and medium armor but horrible against armored "tanks"

2. All Piercing weapons would be -2 to hit but have a critical range of 19-20 and do an additional 10 damage on crit. Making them harder to hit but "keen" and "Massive crit" weapons as a lance/spear to the chest or dagger to the back.

3. Bludgeoning damage would be considered "standard" and unchanged as punching is pretty standard.

I just like this because it makes weapon types matter more and its makes the Armored Tank aka "Mountain" bosses a bit more intimidating. I know some people will just carry an axe pike and switch to piercing but I am in favor of that since it has players describing the change in attack do to the change in opponent. Also, carrying multiple weapons can become an encumbrance issue until you get you axe pike which makes for some good early game upgrades.

 

[77IM]

I generally like the weapon approach in 5e so I'd only make minor tweaks:

1. Make all crossbows simple, and all bows martial. Even the hand crossbow; I don't see what the big deal is.
2. Add a "Min Str" column, and give many weapons a minimum Strength score to wield them (or else you get disadvantage). For example, the heavy crossbow might have Min Str 15 -- giving the light crossbow a reason to exist. (Ditto for longbow/shortbow.) If you don't meet the requirement you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This would fix several other quirks (like you could slap a Min Str 11 on the rapier and nerf a lot of Str 8 builds), and may allow you to make some other weapons simple.
3. I also like the idea of Versatile being a composite property that can affect things like reach, finesse, and even Min Str. For example the longsword having Versatile (d10, finesse) and the spear/quarterstaff having Versatile (d8, finesse) are great ideas.
4. Make the flail Versatile (d10), to make it cool for huge dudes in armor wielding a ball-and-chain. And I'd introduce a "light flail" that is martial d6, finesse, light -- basically a bludgeoning version of the short sword. Monks would become proficient with light flail and scimitar, so that they're not all using short swords, spears, and quarterstaffs. While we're at it, the war pick needs to be Versatile (d10) also, because those things were actually pretty cool.
5. Add the scythe, a slashing greatclub.
6. Make the trident Versatile (d10, finesse) which puts it into a really weird niche, as appropriate for a really weird weapon. But, I'd clarify that thrown weapons can only be thrown with one hand (you can't two-handed throw a spear or trident).
7. Make the whip a light weapon, because that's awesome.
8. I like the idea of an "off-hand" property for daggers that lets them be used in TWF even if the weapon in your other hand isn't light.
9. Bump up the light hammer up to d6 for parity with the handaxe.
10. Add "shield" as an entry, in its own category (separate from simple, martial, etc.) to clarify what happens when you bash with it.

Finally, I'd change the Weapon Master feat considerably, because as written it's a crap feat:

• You become proficient in all simple and martial weapons.
• When you hit with a weapon (not an unarmed strike or spell attack), you deal +1 damage.
• While you are wielding a weapon, you have advantage on any ability check or saving throw you make to avoid dropping the weapon, being disarmed, or otherwise losing your grip on the weapon.
• When you wield a simple weapon, increase its damage die by one step: d4 to d6, d6 to d8, d8 to d10, and d10 to d12.

(Basically, it makes any weapon you wield "martial," plus a +1 damage bonus on top of that.)

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

I generally like the weapon approach in 5e so I'd only make minor tweaks:

I agree, I don't really have any issues with the current table except for the Rapier and Scimitar (we've switched their roles for the most part). I like a lot of the tweaks you recommend and my thoughts are:

2. Make Heavy weapons require a Strength 13 or higher. Also, I would make it so Strength penalties apply to damage, even with Finesse weapons. So those Str 8 builds might gain from high Dex, but the low Str would still impact them this way.

10. Shields are thus in my group:

Bucklers: +1 AC, allows a weapon of 2 lbs or less to be wielded in the off-hand, but attacks made with that weapon have disadvantage if the Buckler is used for AC. If you choose to not gain the +1 AC bonus, the off-hand attack is not at disadvantage. Bucklers can be used to punch for 1d3 plus Strength modifier damage.
Normal: +2 AC, punch damage is 1d4 plus Strength modifier.
Tower: +2 AC, as a Bonus action you can take cover behind your tower shield, increasing your AC bonus to +5 (as three-quarters cover) against ranged attacks. You cannot punch with a tower shield.

 

[BacchusNL]

I generally like the weapon approach in 5e so I'd only make minor tweaks:

1. Make all crossbows simple, and all bows martial. Even the hand crossbow; I don't see what the big deal is.
2. Add a "Min Str" column, and give many weapons a minimum Strength score to wield them (or else you get disadvantage). For example, the heavy crossbow might have Min Str 15 -- giving the light crossbow a reason to exist. (Ditto for longbow/shortbow.) If you don't meet the requirement you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This would fix several other quirks (like you could slap a Min Str 11 on the rapier and nerf a lot of Str 8 builds), and may allow you to make some other weapons simple.
3. I also like the idea of Versatile being a composite property that can affect things like reach, finesse, and even Min Str. For example the longsword having Versatile (d10, finesse) and the spear/quarterstaff having Versatile (d8, finesse) are great ideas.
4. Make the flail Versatile (d10), to make it cool for huge dudes in armor wielding a ball-and-chain. And I'd introduce a "light flail" that is martial d6, finesse, light -- basically a bludgeoning version of the short sword. Monks would become proficient with light flail and scimitar, so that they're not all using short swords, spears, and quarterstaffs. While we're at it, the war pick needs to be Versatile (d10) also, because those things were actually pretty cool.
5. Add the scythe, a slashing greatclub.
6. Make the trident Versatile (d10, finesse) which puts it into a really weird niche, as appropriate for a really weird weapon. But, I'd clarify that thrown weapons can only be thrown with one hand (you can't two-handed throw a spear or trident).
7. Make the whip a light weapon, because that's awesome.
8. I like the idea of an "off-hand" property for daggers that lets them be used in TWF even if the weapon in your other hand isn't light.
9. Bump up the light hammer up to d6 for parity with the handaxe.
10. Add "shield" as an entry, in its own category (separate from simple, martial, etc.) to clarify what happens when you bash with it.

Finally, I'd change the Weapon Master feat considerably, because as written it's a crap feat:

• You become proficient in all simple and martial weapons.
• When you hit with a weapon (not an unarmed strike or spell attack), you deal +1 damage.
• While you are wielding a weapon, you have advantage on any ability check or saving throw you make to avoid dropping the weapon, being disarmed, or otherwise losing your grip on the weapon.
• When you wield a simple weapon, increase its damage die by one step: d4 to d6, d6 to d8, d8 to d10, and d10 to d12.

(Basically, it makes any weapon you wield "martial," plus a +1 damage bonus on top of that.)

I'm a big fan of all these changes. Along the same lines I would really like to see more d8-options for Rogues (why can't I sneak attack when I bash someones brains in from behind with a blunt weapon?), to reduce rapier-pigeonholing. If there could be some different classifications on shields, Like Buckler (light)/ Round Shield (medium)/ Tower Shield (heavy) then that would just be gravy aswell ^_^.

 

[GlassJaw]

I've run games of Dungeon World a few times, where damage is all class based. I had a D&D player who was very confused by this. "What do you mean my fighter does d10 damage? Do I do more damage if I get a big sword? No? That doesn't make sense!"

I'm not sure which option I favour. I like a weapon chart that has bad weapons and good weapons, so that the game can have rabble and conscripts and so on - forces that typically have subpar weapons (for reasons of skill and/or cost). Sure, swords are better and every adventurer will have one, but swords are expensive, so a militia shouldn't have them.

I also like the simplicity of saying, "Hey, fighter, you do 1d10 damage per hit. Whether you have a sword or a spear or a honking big axe is just fluff."

I know the the class-based/universal weapon damage systems have been mentioned multiple times, and I'm not opposed to them. That said, the lengthy weapon chart is intrinsic to D&D, just like Magic Missile and Half-Orcs and Vancian spellcasting. Poring over the weapon chart is D&D, and for my purposes (currently), I'm not interested in deviating from that. It's what Gygax intended.

That said, I do envision a "toolbox" supplement that has multiple weapon (and armor) systems.

 

[GlassJaw]

I will point out that Weapons speeds that modify initiative are in the rules already. DMG pg. 271

There's a reason weapon speeds went the way of the dodo in my opinion.

 

[77IM]

Oh I forgot a couple other minor tweaks:

11. Make the morningstar a simple two-handed weapon. It's really confusing what a morningstar actually is -- sometimes it's depicted as a ball-and-chain, other times as a spiked mace -- but according to Wikipedia, most things called "morningstars" were big two-handed wooden shafts with a nasty spiked head on the end.
12. While we're thinking about historical weapons, a falchion should be a simple d6 Versatile (d8) slashing weapon. It's basically a machete. It would fill several gaps in the game, serving as both a peasant improvised weapon, and give simple-weapon-wielders something sword-like to twirl around.

 

[Bacon Bits]

according to Wikipedia, most things called "morningstars" were big two-handed wooden shafts with a nasty spiked head on the end.

I don't think I agree that morningstars were only two-handed, even just reading only that entry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_star_(weapon)). It's not even clear that they were predominantly two-handed, just that many surviving examples were.

 

[Xeviat]

I actually like that the Shortbow is a simple weapon. Why? Because humans have made them since forever. Just like why I like that the hand axe is simple.