D&D General What You're Missing with Torches in B/X D&D

[Shades of Eternity]

How much is this feasible in later editions?

Have you done any silly tricks with torches?

 

[touc]

Summary if you don't want to watch the full video. In general order:

Spoiler

Theme: The Cheap Torch Is a Weapon (but not in the way you might think)

• Argument: I can convince you the Torch is the most useful non-magical item and more useful than many magic ones
  • Players should fear running out of torches more than running out of HP in a dungeon
• Your torch is a timer.
  • Rule: torches burn for 1 hour. Every 1 hr is the timer for a wandering monster encounter roll.
  • When a torch is about out, it signals a resource question & gamble. Can we go into the next room, keep going further?
• Your torch has a ton of uses beyond light. My caveat, not his: if your DM isn't on board, many of these won't work.
  • Morale is everything (if triggered, can cause foes to flee, even without a battle).
  • Fire is fear. If you know the morale rules, you can trigger them for intelligent foes by holding the line with a wall of fiery confidence.
  • Torches skew reaction rolls (a random roll how opponents treat you), tying into the above use of fire to intimidate and show confidence.
  • Fire is uncertainty. Low intelligent foes won't want to willingly charge into fire.
  • Torches force the dungeon to reveal itself. Ambushes rely on visibility, but your torch eliminates many surprises and is a lure for many monsters (oh, a light?), at which point you can exploit their curiosity and get them into a battlefield of your choice like a choke point.
  • More lights = fewer wandering monsters & more treasure (faster exploration, less getting lost). Treasure is primary focus in B/X and wandering monsters are a resource drain. You want to be exploring numbered rooms.
    Miscellaneous uses like hurt swarms, destroy webs, light gas pockets.
• Summary: use the torch to dictate the tactical environment. They're the spine of dungeon exploration.
  • If you're not using your torches, you're playing B/X in hard mode.
  • He finishes by asking for your anecdotes about how the lowly torch saved the day.

OP Question (can we port the above points to later editions like D&D?):

• The morale, reaction, and wandering monster roll exploits are no longer set rules but totally discretion of the DM
• There's fewer adventures (in my experience) written in the style of classic, true underground dungeons (wherein the deeper you go, the more dangerous it gets)
• Fire damage is a lot less scary with D&D's increased HP than in B/X. In real life, very bad things would happen to be if I tried running through a bonfire. In D&D, that's 1d8 damage (create bonfire), not really a great bother, and even less so for a torch. In B/X, 1d8 hit points is a solid enough threat to low level folks.
• It's so easy to "see in the dark" in D&D with species vision, limitless cantrip spells, and class abilities that torches may not be a thing for many D&D parties. And, with limitless cantrips, we can create light, fake fire, real fire, loud lure noises, and pretty much all the effects mentioned in the B/X video that torches might help one with, or send familiars to scout, etc.
• Despite these limitations, the ideas the video presents are solid "one-shot" arguments for your DM. Player: I wave my torch violently at the giant rats. I'm hoping the sight of fire triggers a primal response in them to flee. Don't count on it working more than once. The DM might reward you for creativity but probably won't create a new "I win" rule with torch exploits. And, as mentioned in the last point, many of these could be done with D&D minor spells and abilities. Unless you're playing a 4-person all-human Fighter party, you've probably got them and don't need that beloved torch.

 

[Lanefan]

OP Question (can we port the above points to later editions like D&D?):

• The morale, reaction, and wandering monster roll exploits are no longer set rules but totally discretion of the DM
• There's fewer adventures (in my experience) written in the style of classic, true underground dungeons (wherein the deeper you go, the more dangerous it gets)
• Fire damage is a lot less scary with D&D's increased HP than in B/X. In real life, very bad things would happen to be if I tried running through a bonfire. In D&D, that's 1d8 damage (create bonfire), not really a great bother, and even less so for a torch. In B/X, 1d8 hit points is a solid enough threat to low level folks.
• It's so easy to "see in the dark" in D&D with species vision, limitless cantrip spells, and class abilities that torches may not be a thing for many D&D parties. And, with limitless cantrips, we can create light, fake fire, real fire, loud lure noises, and pretty much all the effects mentioned in the B/X video that torches might help one with, or send familiars to scout, etc.

All of this is a rather sad commentary on later-edition D&D, IMO.

• And, as mentioned in the last point, many of these could be done with D&D minor spells and abilities. Unless you're playing a 4-person all-human Fighter party, you've probably got them and don't need that beloved torch.

All very well until those minor spells etc. fail or are dispelled.

I ran a party not long ago, most of whom didn't have underground night sight, who had come to rely so heavily on Continual-Light rocks that they never thought to bring torches any more. Then they ran into an underground null-magic area and all their lights went out.....

Next in-town downtime there was a minor run on the general store's torch supply.

 

[Shiroiken]

Never got the obsession with torches. Lanterns were always a better choice IMO...

 

[CreamCloud0]

Never got the obsession with torches. Lanterns were always a better choice IMO...

Correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t lanterns expensive? Or at least not basic starting gear, so while practically lanterns are a superior choice in most circumstances (well, swinging your lantern at a foe is more likely to break it than harm them) most everybody had to go through the torches stage first at one time or another.

 

[aco175]

I seem to recall a C3P0 at the Ewok village thing with the wizard using cantrip to make the torches change color and had one spin in circles. I think we were captured by kobolds or goblins.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

My caveat, not his: if your DM isn't on board, many of these won't work.

As someone who regularly runs B/X, none of these bullet points are in the rules and all of them are pretty far removed from what I'd allow a player character to attempt to do. Unless a monster is specifically afraid of/weak to fire, waving a torch around menacingly is just gonna get you a spear in your gut.

Correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t lanterns expensive? Or at least not basic starting gear, so while practically lanterns are a superior choice in most circumstances (well, swinging your lantern at a foe is more likely to break it than harm them) most everybody had to go through the torches stage first at one time or another.

Torches are dirt cheap (1 gp for 6) but lanterns aren't exactly expensive (10 gp, plus 2 gp per oil flask). PCs start with 105 gold on average.

The advantage torches have is their more accessible flame - thrown Oil flasks are extremely powerful in B/X, and torches give you a consistent way to light up enemies or squares that are doused in oil.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Torches and flasks of oil were staples in my early D&D days. Nothing like getting three torches deep into a dungeon and tying to decide if you wanted to risk a little more exploration or retreat and replenish your light source (lanterns being expensive and all).

"Who is carrying the light source?" can be a fun and/or frustrating microgame. This led to light shields being preferred (because you could still hold a torch in that hand and keep your weapon out), as well as a lot more demi-human characters for infravision. Woe to the human cleric who was trying to juggle a mace, shield, holy symbol, and torch.

 

[InVinoVeritas]

The true upshot of this is how D&D moved away from exploration-based mechanics in favor of combat-based mechanics. Tracking inventory, paying attention to things like encounter distance, and, essentially, applying wargame tactics to the exploration of a dungeon were what the early game was much about.

On the one hand, many participants didn't enjoy this, and most tables quickly handwaved it. On the other, it got replaced with forever available resources and trap and encounter design that didn't need any of this. So, we end up forgetting about the logistics of exploration, doing away with the mechanics, and stripping down the engine so that combat is all that matters anymore.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

As someone who regularly runs B/X, none of these bullet points are in the rules and all of them are pretty far removed from what I'd allow a player character to attempt to do. Unless a monster is specifically afraid of/weak to fire, waving a torch around menacingly is just gonna get you a spear in your gut.


Torches are dirt cheap (1 gp for 6) but lanterns aren't exactly expensive (10 gp, plus 2 gp per oil flask). PCs start with 105 gold on average.

The advantage torches have is their more accessible flame - thrown Oil flasks are extremely powerful in B/X, and torches give you a consistent way to light up enemies or squares that are doused in oil.

Well, the other advantage is torches are hard to break and more efficient in a coin-per-hour sense. The trade-off is that their flame is slightly more fragile (vulnerable to wind and water), and they're much less space/weight efficient. They may also be harder to carry, as torches usually have to be held, where a lantern might hang from a pole or the like.

One torch burns for one hour. One flask of oil burns for four hours. That means twelve torches equals three flasks of oil. You'll pay 6 gold for those oil flasks, but only 2 gold for that many torches--meaning the lantern will never pay for itself compared to the cost of torches, which is probably not super realistic. However, if you save a lot more weight by using lanterns instead of torches, then you may earn enough extra to justify the expense--or if using the flasks as improvised weapons.