What's not fun?

[JoeGKushner]

Yep! HE has a LOT more positive hit points to play with, but once you're unconscious, 20th level meat and 1st level meat are purty much the same.

And yet... what if he was sleeping? He's still unconscious right?

Coup de Grace
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.

You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.

You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).

Seems the official rules disagree with you since that 20th level fighter lord is going to have a much higher Fortitude save...

 

[Jhaelen]

I think this is a big part of the reason why 5th-10th level is the "sweet spot" for 3.x D&D. The PCs have enough bonuses to their rolls to make a significant difference, but not so much as to, as you say, remove the randomness from the equation completely (except for that 5% chance of a natural 1).

Very good observation. I never thought about it that way, but that's really spot on, imho.

I don't like the 'dead at -10' rule for a similar reason: It's too high for a first level character and too low for a 20th level character. I'd prefer it to be a percentage of the total hit points or something else that scales in some way.

Or even better: reduce the whole hp range. Say, let's start with 20 hp and have a maximum of about 100 hp at level 30. Use other mechanisms to make high level characters more difficult to kill or to make melee combatants tougher than spellcasters.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Spraying bitter herbs? So there has been no talk of changing the skill system in way that will result in less failure? Has there been no discussion about racheting up low level PCs because its no fun for Mr. Wizard to miss with his crossbow or Mr. Fighter failing a rather pedestrian will save because 1-20 is too random at low level? I'd like you to put away your zomg he's criticizing WotC glasses and read the post for what it is or just go to another thread little penguin boy.

Actually, there hasn't. There was talk about the fact that even HITTING with a crossbow is no fun when you wanted to play someone who casts spells.

There was talk about making it so that the skill system allows high level people to accomplish mundane tasks easier so that 20th level adventures don't bog down when the party reaches a cliff they have to climb.

There was talk that dying to one attack is no fun for almost anyone. That no ONE bad die roll should force you to roll up a new character.

But that's a far cry from "failing skill checks" is unfun or "failing attack rolls" is unfun.

 

[Li Shenron]

Ok, definitely there are diverse definitions of fun and unfun around here...

 

[Grog]

Simple Caster power check. If the Dispel Magic is higher than the spell buff casting power it is dispelled. Just subtract and go. Basic math that takes less than a minute to do.

It's not the rolling that takes the time, it's the recalculating bonuses for a character when half his buffs get dispelled and half don't. Sure, it's easy to write out stats for a fully buffed character ahead of time (barring combat-specific buffs, of course, which can be a major factor), but when half of your dozen or so buff spells get dispelled, the bonuses have to be recalculated on the fly - it can't be done ahead of time because you never know which buffs are going to get dispelled.

Also, it gets old seeing every single high-level combat involving spellcasters open with a flurry of targeted Greater Dispellings from both sides.

 

[danzig138]

Ok, definitely there are diverse definitions of fun and unfun around here...

I really do tihnk the only answer to the question is "Everything you like." Because I'm sure that, given enough time, every aspect of the game will eventually come up as "not fun".

 

[Ringan]

...

Now that's a totally different style of game, but you could use the same principle for D&D. Fail to make that (opposed - that's important) Survival check to track the bad guys? Guess what - the get the jump on you.

LostSoul, I think this is a really cool idea! If you have any more examples of it, I'd be really interested to hear them. Also, perhaps this could be the solution to characters constantly doing the take 20 search check in dungeons.

 

[zoroaster100]

Visceris, as was pointed out, sometimes during a session the party wants to buff for a different type of foe, and with very high level characters that takes a loooong time for my group, which is almost all casters of different types. Even when they know what they are facing ahead of time, so that buffing could theoretically be done before hand, my players are all busy professionals and often don't get to talk to each other or email about the game until we finally get to sit at the game table together for a few hours every several weeks. So it is painful to have to spend a big chunk of that time on prepping instead of roleplaying or even fighting battles. I'm sure for some groups it is not an issue, but I'm also sure my group is not the only one for whom prep time required is an issue.

Mind you, I'm not saying that third edition is no good. We still have fun overall despite these specific elements we find not fun. But our fun was greatest in levels 3 through 11 or so, and got more and more spread out in between bookkeeping in levels 11 through 20 (where we are right now after two years of playing). Our entire group, including all 5 players and me (the DM) have been yearning more and more for the good old days of lower level play for a while now.

What I hope 4e can accomplish, even though we don't know yet if it will, is to make high level play just as fun as the lower level play is right now for 3.5.

 

[Teflon Billy]

Hmm...

I actually think the -10 rule is almost too kind. Not quite, but almost. Making it any harder to die would, IMO, damage the experience of the game. It takes out too much of the risk. IME, -10 works fine.

I'm with you.

I want death to be more of a threat (and more difficult to reverse)

 

[Midknightsun]

Save or dies aren't fun for me. I wouldn't mind them being much rarer.

-10 death rule actually seems to rough for me at higher level, and a bit wonky when your high level fighter goes from fine to dead in one hit. I'd be all for expanding the dying and disabled range as characters advance. Considering how much damage some of the nastier critters can do, you can still have a definite threat of death without the wonky "Hey man, I'm fine, don't---*sound of fighter's internal organs taking their own move actions*. But I do think death should be a part of it, just not so dang easy.

The multitude of stackable modifers are not fun. Too time consuming.

Grapple: Yeah, I would luv to see this beast slain.

Expected wealth per level just to stay competitive? I can't see it as being heroic if my gear is all but doing the work for my character. You end up playing a MMIP (Mobile Magic Item Platform). Let the character's abilities stand on their own a bit more. Let the Heroes be . . . heroes.

Hit Points are fine. I got no beef with hit points.

Mages sleeping after blowing their spells every 15 minutes or so is annoying, and breaks versimilitude. I'd like to see that loophole closed.

Kludgy multiclassing with caster classes. There should be a better way.

Iterative attacks, yeah, I find them unnecessary. I'd love to see them go bye bye.

Vancian magic- well, I can see the benefit of resource management it forces one to be aware of, but I like the idea of at will and per encounter abilities. Definitely an evolution of the system. Save the per day stuff for the really potent abilities.