D&D (2024) What's not going to cost discipline points for the Monk to do now?

[Mephista]

I don't like increasing HD on the monk. I'd prefer boosting their survivability through giving them AC and saving throw bumps.

It just feels more monk-ish for them to dodge everything ("Remember, best block, no be there." -- Mr Miyagi) than to rely on their HP to soak hits.

 

[mellored]

"Remember, best block, no be there." -- Mr Miyagi

I posted variations of this idea before.

While not wearing any armor or shield, and you are targeted by an attack, you can use your reaction to move 5'. If you are out of range the attack automatically misses.
You can expend 1 discipline point to increase the range to half your speed.

 

[Kinematics]

Usually easier to compare average damage than a range.

How about a graph for your comparisons?

This shows two monk builds. The first build is just straight hand-to-hand. The second build dual wields a handaxe + dagger (Nick), which leaves the bonus action free for the bonus martial arts strike or Flurry of Blows. The dagger adds very little to the total, but Vex on the handaxe provides a decent bump. (NB: It may be better to leave off the dagger so that the Vex boost applies to the bonus action attack instead.)

Note: Modeling Flurry of Blows is complicated, and I'll probably redo it in the future.

On the barbarian side, I used the Wild Heart subclass, which basically doesn't add any damage. Rage and no Rage puts it roughly on par with the monk builds, though activating Reckless Attack puts it decently ahead. The Berserker has higher potential with Reckless Attack, but I think distracts from the other comparisons, so I left it out.

I think the main problem for the monk's damage is that there's almost no growth after level 12. Aside from that, it's a typical middling damage dealer. The interesting parts are the other things it can do.

 

[mellored]

How about a graph for your comparisons?

So... a no-DI monk has roughly the same offense as a no-rage, no-reckless barbarian.
and less HP.

Thus, DI needs to be a little better than rage + reckless attack.

So... how many flurry of blows do you need to beat rage?

 

[Senior_WotC_Janitor]

"Kids and Monks eat free"

 

[strawbellebelle]

Medium armor, d12 hit dice, danger sense, Relentless rage.

Persistent rage is a level after Disciplined Survivor. So losing rage isn't an issue.

And monks need Wis a lot more than barbarians need Con. So barbarians can get feats easier.

Also, Barbarians benefits from other sources of advantage too.

I would consider weapon mastery, weapon feats, and reckless attack to be a basic barbarian feature.

But if we are going to ignore them, let's at least have the Barbarian dual wield.

Usually easier to compare average damage than a range.

D4-> 2.5
D6 -> 3.5
D8 -> 4.5
D10 -> 5.5
D12 -> 6.5

Barb: 2x(1d6+3+2) = 17, + HP, + resistance
Monk: 2x(1d6+3) = 13

Barb: 3x(1d6+4+2) = 28.5, + HP, + resistance
Monk: 3x(1d8+4) = 25.5

Barb: 3x(1d6+5+3) = 34.5, + HP, + resistance
Monk: 3x(1d10+5) = 31

Barb: 3x(1d6+5+4) = 37.5, + HP, + resistance, + survive a lethal hit
Monk: 3x(1d12+5) = 34, + all saving throws

So aside from medium armour capping out at 15+2 as opposed to 20 for Unarmoured Defense, here's the problem with your math (aside from the minor error of assuming the Level 1 Monk uses two unarmed strikes as opposed to a versatile d8 weapon + unarmed strike: You give the Barbarian their Strength bonus on their extra attack from two-weapon fighting, except that doesn't apply without the specific weapon style.

Thus, accurate numbers with said formula drops each result of the Barbarian's damage in your results by their ability modifier (as well as slightly upping the Level 1 Monk to 14). Which results in Monk equating or surpassing Barbarian by your own model.

And Barbarian does have Reckless Attack, yes, but Barbarian also doesn't always have Rage. Much like a Monk can increase their per-turn damage via FoB...gee, it's like D&D is (or rather, should be) actually too complicated for theorycrafting models to accurately detail the effects of various features?

I think the main problem for the monk's damage is that there's almost no growth after level 12. Aside from that, it's a typical middling damage dealer. The interesting parts are the other things it can do.

The Monk's mechanism for damage scaling at later levels is Discipline/Ki Points—having more points allows them more uses of Flurry of Blows and other damage-boosting subclass features. Level 11 is also a level that damage-oriented Monk subclasses get features that augment their damage-dealing capabilities—Astral Self gets an extra MA die once per turn, Ascendant Dragon gets their Breath of the Dragon damage increased to three MA dice, Mercy gets a free usage of Hands of Harm with every Flurry of Blows, for examples, and all three of these classes having more points lets them use the relevant features more often.

 

[Kinematics]

So... a no-DI monk has roughly the same offense as a no-rage, no-reckless barbarian.
and less HP.

Thus, DI needs to be a little better than rage + reckless attack.

So... how many flurry of blows do you need to beat rage?

What do you mean by "DI"? I don't recognize the abbreviation.

For Flurry of Blows, I used 50% of the Discipline Point (DP) pool per short rest, up to a max of 6 (two fights of 3 rounds each), out of a max of 6, to determine the percent of time Flurry of Blows was used. So from level 12 up, it was used 100% of the time. At level 10, it's 83% of the time; etc.

So from level 12 up, it's already being used as much as possible. Since barbarian pulls ahead at level 12+, it's clear that no amount of FoB will be sufficient.

I know this isn't a complete model. I need to scale both on DP availability, and up to a max rate of usage. I'll rework the math in a bit.

The Monk's mechanism for damage scaling at later levels is Discipline/Ki Points—having more points allows them more uses of Flurry of Blows and other damage-boosting subclass features. Level 11 is also a level that damage-oriented Monk subclasses get features that augment their damage-dealing capabilities—Astral Self gets an extra MA die once per turn, Ascendant Dragon gets their Breath of the Dragon damage increased to three MA dice, Mercy gets a free usage of Hands of Harm with every Flurry of Blows, for examples, and all three of these classes having more points lets them use the relevant features more often.

As noted above, the graph I presented is already using Flurry of Blows 100% of the time at levels 12+. Having more DP isn't going to affect that aspect of the chart.

I did miss or misinterpret some of the damage features, though I'll note that I'm only considering the playtest subclasses.

 

[strawbellebelle]

As noted above, the graph I presented is already using Flurry of Blows 100% of the time at levels 12+. Having more DP isn't going to affect that aspect of the chart.

So what your model posits is that two d10s and a d4 are more damaging than four d10s. Let alone four d12s.

You realize how that obviously makes zero sense whatsoever?

 

[Kinematics]

So what your model posits is that two d10s and a d4 are more damaging than four d10s. Let alone four d12s.

You realize how that obviously makes zero sense whatsoever?

Uh, no. It means 2d6(+Dex) + 1d4 + 2d10(+Dex), plus Vex, is more damaging than 4d10(+Dex) without Vex.

And yes, the numbers confused me a bit at first, too, when I first did the comparison, before remembering that Vex was part of the equation.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So aside from medium armour capping out at 15+2 as opposed to 20 for Unarmoured Defense, here's the problem with your math (aside from the minor error of assuming the Level 1 Monk uses two unarmed strikes as opposed to a versatile d8 weapon + unarmed strike: You give the Barbarian their Strength bonus on their extra attack from two-weapon fighting, except that doesn't apply without the specific weapon style.

Thus, accurate numbers with said formula drops each result of the Barbarian's damage in your results by their ability modifier (as well as slightly upping the Level 1 Monk to 14). Which results in Monk equating or surpassing Barbarian by your own model.

And Barbarian does have Reckless Attack, yes, but Barbarian also doesn't always have Rage. Much like a Monk can increase their per-turn damage via FoB...gee, it's like D&D is (or rather, should be) actually too complicated for theorycrafting models to accurately detail the effects of various features?


The Monk's mechanism for damage scaling at later levels is Discipline/Ki Points—having more points allows them more uses of Flurry of Blows and other damage-boosting subclass features. Level 11 is also a level that damage-oriented Monk subclasses get features that augment their damage-dealing capabilities—Astral Self gets an extra MA die once per turn, Ascendant Dragon gets their Breath of the Dragon damage increased to three MA dice, Mercy gets a free usage of Hands of Harm with every Flurry of Blows, for examples, and all three of these classes having more points lets them use the relevant features more often.

It’s not damage, but I love the Drunken Master’s ability to use disengage as part of FoB.

Still, I think the Monk has room for something. They’d be a great class to get expanded crit range in the base class, and should be able to spend a DI as a BA to add 2 MA dice to an attack that has hit, so you can go for the big wham sometimes rather than the many smaller pop-pops.

And I’d give them BA disengage for free. They’re supposed to move in an out of the thick of it, it makes sense.

But they don’t need as much as some folks like to say they do.