D&D (2024) What's not going to cost discipline points for the Monk to do now?

[doctorbadwolf]

Hmmm...

Monk: disengage and dash.
Rogue: disengage and sneak.
Ranger: dash and sneak.

I mean, thematical that works. But I kind of feel exactly the same features would still be less fun.

Yeah, and I do think it’s okay if the rogue is just better at it than the other two, having dash, disengage, and hide, while the other two only have 2. (Well the monk would still have patient defense theoretically, but like I said I’m down to change that too)

So... let's have every ability have a mini- version that doesn't take DP, but you spend DP to do the full version.

Absolutely. My Monk as Mystic Warrior rewrite does this, but needs some iteration.

Step of the Wind
As a bonus action, you can move 5' without provoking an opportunity attack.
1 DP: increase the distance up to your speed.

Yep. Like I said, I’d make the DP version do everything SoTW currently does, so also increased jump distance (I’d change that to “you can jump your whole speed”. It’s just cleaner)

Flurry of Blows
As a bonus action, make an Unarmed Attack.
1DP: increase to 2 Unarmed Attacks.

Yeah. I also kinda feel like this needs a damage upgrade at level 11 and again at like 15, but that’s a different issue.

Patient Defense
As a reaction, you impose disadvantages on an attack against you.
1DP: disadvantages on all attacks until the start of your turn.

That’s definitely good. And “stacks” with deflect missiles. It still think it might be cleaner to fold PD into deflect missiles and make it deflect attacks, but I’m open to this.

Defective Missile
As a reaction, reduce the damage of a ranged attack
1DP: it does not take your reaction.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Slow Fall
Reduce damage by 5 times your monk level
1DP: 10 times your monk level

Sure, or it could add horizontal movement, or if you take no damage you can move as part of the same reaction. Some kind of of “spend points” upgrade.
Even making it not use your reaction if you spend would work.

Stunning Stunning
Once per turn, when you hit with an Unarmed Attack, the target makes a Constitution save or is Dazes
1DP: the target is Stunned.
(Might be a bit much?)

Probably. I think the only way to fix SS without cutting it is to make it work like flesh to stone.

Empowered Stike
....
1DP: You can chose cold, fire, or lightning. This last until your next short rest.

IMO this should be free, and take a point to add extra damage of that type.

Acrobat Movement
...
1DP: you can stay there until next turn.

I like that. It always bugs me that movement stuff just…ends, at the end of your turn. Like…we can track someone being in the air while other people take their turn, surely.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Honestly, it doesn't feel right. Aside from being more of a rogue thing, it doesn't feel like it fits the thematics of the monk.

Disengaging especially well isn’t fitting to the thematics of the Monk!?

Focusing on graceful mobility for a moment to weave through enemies untouched…doesn’t fit the thematics of the Monk?

Boggled.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Might be a bit much for level 1. Probably best to keep them separate.

Step of the Wind at 1, including at-will.

And Miss Step to level 7 (?). Which is 5' on a miss.

Just the 5ft on a miss, at level 7? Why not the same amount as the earlier ability?

True.

Didn't take it that way.
Just didn't understand what you meant by trade-off.

I’m glad.

So... Unarmed Strike + disengage half the time?


Step of the Wind
As a bonus action, you can move up to your Unarmed Movement (minimum 5') without provoking an opportunity attack.
1 DP: Increase the distance to your speed.

Miss Step (level 7)
As an enemy side steps or raises their shield, you redirect the momentum of your attacks in order to get into a better position.
When you miss with an Unarmed Attack you can move 5' without provoking an opportunity attack.

I think that’s pretty close to dialed in. I am off the next week and a half starting tomorrow, so I’ll try to rework my mystic/duelist/astari/kensei monk rewrite.

And I’ll do that math I mentioned upthread. See if 1d10+Dex+monk level is enough damage reduction to equal always taking half damage Or no damage from Dex saves. (Intuitively I figure it won’t be, but the margins will tell me whether the idea has a kernel of good design or not)

 

[strawbellebelle]

Now, because of how monk is designed for damage, losing your bonus action attack is pretty significant. That's 1/3 to 1/2 of your damage output. A rogue might give up his bonus action for Cunning Action, but his primary damage is Sneak Attack, so very little is lost unless he misses entirely. Other jobs similarly put the bulk of their damage in the main attack action.

In my experience, the vast majority of the time I've used Step of the Wind were times that the most important thing on the turn in question wasn't dealing damage. If I want to swiftly close in on a enemy that's quite far away, I probably want to Stunning Strike (or other options) to try to take them out of commission. If I want to get away from enemies, dealing damage in that circumstance is not my top priority. It's always worth remembering that Monk already gets a boost to their movement speed, which is also part of the reason why their Dash bonus action has a cost—by level 5, the Monk's Dash takes them three times the distance of most other characters' movement, and a whole 30 feet more than such characters dashing themselves.

Personally, with the idea of Warlocks getting a third attack at Level 11, I wouldn't be against the Monk gaining the ability to use their bonus unarmed strike or Flurry of Blows as part of the Attack action rather than their bonus action at the same level (but not both, because five d10 attacks at Level 11 is obviously imbalanced), letting them use their other bonus-action options alongside extra unarmed attacks. But it would very much have to be something at a higher level like that, rather than a two-level dip giving you a permanent free d6 attack every turn while still leaving the bonus action option.

 

[mellored]

Yeah. I also kinda feel like this needs a damage upgrade at level 11 and again at like 15, but that’s a different issue.

The dice scale, so that helps a bit. But otherwise.

Flurry of Blows
As a bonus action, make an Unarmed Attack.
1DP: increase to 2 Unarmed Attacks.
2DP (level 11): increase to 3 Unarmed Attack.
3DP (level 17): increase to 4 attacks.

...Probably too much rolling so I guess not.

t still think it might be cleaner to fold PD into deflect missiles and make it deflect attacks, but I’m open to this.

I have no objections to putting them together.

Probably. I think the only way to fix SS without cutting it is to make it work like flesh to stone.

There's already a lot of rolling on the monks turn. A multi-stage stun would be too much IMO.

Though, maybe something like.

Spend 1 DP when you first target a creature on your turn. They then make a Constitution saving throw at the end of your turn. If they fail, they take an effect depending on the number of times you hit them.

No hits: you regain 1 DP.
Once, they can't take reactions.
Twice, they are dazed
Three times, they are stuned
Four times, they are incapacitated.

Or maybe steal the sorcerer idea, and you get an effects based on your damage roll.

IMO this should be free, and take a point to add extra damage of that type.

I think force for free is good enough.
But extra damage for spending DP could be a nice way to scale it.

1 DP: your Unarmed Attacks are cold, fire, or lightning for a minute or until you use this feature again. You gain +1d4 bonus damage while this last.
2DP (level 11): increase the damage to +1d6

 

[tetrasodium]

So... you like it then?


I wouldn't do more than 5' at low levels. But scaling it makes sense.

I guess up to your Unarmored Movement bonus would be ok. (Still 5' at level 1).

You are giving up your bonus punch, flurry, subclass, etc...

No. This entire tangent shows everything wrong with monk design and priorities. Going by the last few pages monk needs to:

• Meet or exceed barbarian nonrage damage without using discipline because barbarians have other features too
• Remove the discipline cost from most of the many monk abilities monk also have because reasons
• Make many monk abilities unlink from the action economy because it wouldn't be right if monk had to choose from doing one or the other like every other class needs to decide when situations are more appropriate for one over another
• Meet or exceed rogue's ability to get out of melee without provoking an OA, but it shouldn't hinge on consuming something in the action economy or discipline points.

About the only thing not called for is meet or exceed plate+sword and board ac

 

[tetrasodium]

In my experience, the vast majority of the time I've used Step of the Wind were times that the most important thing on the turn in question wasn't dealing damage. If I want to swiftly close in on a enemy that's quite far away, I probably want to Stunning Strike (or other options) to try to take them out of commission. If I want to get away from enemies, dealing damage in that circumstance is not my top priority. It's always worth remembering that Monk already gets a boost to their movement speed, which is also part of the reason why their Dash bonus action has a cost—by level 5, the Monk's Dash takes them three times the distance of most other characters' movement, and a whole 30 feet more than such characters dashing themselves.

Personally, with the idea of Warlocks getting a third attack at Level 11, I wouldn't be against the Monk gaining the ability to use their bonus unarmed strike or Flurry of Blows as part of the Attack action rather than their bonus action at the same level (but not both, because five d10 attacks at Level 11 is obviously imbalanced), letting them use their other bonus-action options alongside extra unarmed attacks. But it would very much have to be something at a higher level like that, rather than a two-level dip giving you a permanent free d6 attack every turn while still leaving the bonus action option.

I'd be surprised if that completely is insane third attack remains or something else doesn't ger changed to make the math reasonable

 

[Clint_L]

So... let's have every ability have a mini- version that doesn't take DP, but you spend DP to do the full version.


Step of the Wind
As a bonus action, you can move 5' without provoking an opportunity attack.
1 DP: increase the distance up to your speed.


Flurry of Blows
As a bonus action, make an Unarmed Attack.
1DP: increase to 2 Unarmed Attacks.


Patient Defense
As a reaction, you impose disadvantages on an attack against you.
1DP: disadvantages on all attacks until the start of your turn.


Defective Missile
As a reaction, reduce the damage of a ranged attack
1DP: it does not take your reaction.

I like all of those except I would tie FoB to the attack action instead of the bonus action. i.e. "When you make your first attack each round you may make an additional, unarmed attack. 1DP: make 2 additional unarmed attacks."

 

[mellored]

No. This entire tangent shows everything wrong with monk design and priorities. Going by the last few pages monk needs to:

• Meet or exceed barbarian nonrage damage without using discipline because barbarians have other features too

Didn't see anyone say Monks should do more damage than a Barb.

But even if they can spend their DP, they still do less than a non-raging Barb.

• Remove the discipline cost from most of the many monk abilities monk also have because reasons

People want to do more monk stuff.
And the main limit on that is the tiny DP pool.

So yea. Lots of suggestions about either increasing the pool or reducing the cost.

• Make many monk abilities unlink from the action economy because it wouldn't be right if monk had to choose from doing one or the other like every other class needs to decide when situations are more appropriate for one over another

Didn't see anyone say that either.
Monk bonus actions are heavily loaded.

• Meet or exceed rogue's ability to get out of melee without provoking an OA, but it shouldn't hinge on consuming something in the action economy or discipline points.

Rogus get this.

Withdraw (Cost:1d6).Immediately after the attack, you move up to half your Speed without provoking Opportunity Attacks.

Which doesn't consume anything or cost. And they still have their bonus action for Cunning Action.

What suggestion beats that without spending DP?

I'd be surprised if that completely is insane third attack remains or something else doesn't ger changed to make the math reasonable

Did you see the math? There where nice charts and everything.

But to summarize.

Monks, spending DP on Flurry, deal less damage than a Barbarian, who is not raging.

 

[tetrasodium]

Didn't see anyone say Monks should do more damage than a Barb.

hmm...

Spoiler: Look what I found.....

So... a no-DI monk has roughly the same offense as a no-rage, no-reckless barbarian.
and less HP.

Thus, DI needs to be a little better than rage + reckless attack.

So... how many flurry of blows do you need to beat rage?