D&D General What's the DC for a fighter to heal their ally with a prayer?

[Manbearcat]

I think it shows that hit points aren't purely physical...

Now I would ask how does this intersect with the OP's example as it specifically calls out that the fighter's ally is wounded and/or dying... the fictional positioning isn't one of grief or panic it's actual wouds and/or being near death.

Come on man. This is invoking the squishy "HPs are meat when I want them to be even though there are no wounds in D&D as a function of HP" axiom. We've done this a million jillion times. HP aren't meat. "Dying" in D&D is just fluff. If you're not dead, you're wholly uninjured. You don't have a shoulder separation that causes you to be unable to use your sword arm or a sucking wound that saps your oxygen uptake or a torn ACL in your knee that makes you hobbled etc etc etc.

I don't think it is doing any work in respect to the above claims... What it is doing is showing there are non-divine techniques one can learn (especially being trained in the ways of the clergy) in order to create bonuses, inspire, etc... through the use of religious rhetoric... No different than what a Warlord does in 4e. What it doesn't show is that it is heard, answered or the work of a divine being. There is no mention of one in any of the descriptions you posted and since they are all lacking the divine keyword as you stated earlier... I don't think it actually sets any type of precedent that prayers are answered in 4e by divine beings.

And this?

I noticed you used the word "techniques" and "religious rhetoric" here rather than prayers. Alright, lets go back to all of these not-Divine (meaning these are not powers afforded to clergy) and apparently "techniques" "religious rhetoric" rather than..."(mundane) prayers (answered":

Faith Healing Religion Utility 2
Your prayers help an ally recover from injury.

Deliverance of Faith Religion Utility 6​

You give of yourself in the belief that somewhere, something will give a little back.

Conviction Religion Utility 10​

You whisper a prayer for aid to overcome hardship.

Recitation Religion Utility 10​

You echo your allies' prayers to give them strength.

Alright, here is some more (mundane) Religion usage in Dungeon Mag from exorcism to channeling to banishing to consecrating to summoning to unlocking latent power to lifting curses to turning enemies to dust to steeling yourself against powerful magic to turning off flow of souls etc:


The corpse falls silent once the evil inhabitants in Starhaunt are slain. A one-minute rite that requires a DC 31 Religion check to perform correctly can also silence the restless corpse.


+ Oppose: Arcana, Nature, or Religion DC 33 (standard action). Requirement: The character must be trained in the skill used. Success: The vortex takes 3d10 + 12 psychic damage. Failure (28 or lower): All enemies in the vortex take 10 psychic damage.


A character standing on or adjacent to the runic circle can neutralize it with a successful DC 23 Religion check (a standard action). A second successful check consecrates the circle, at which point it deals 10 radiant damage to any undead creature that enters the circle or ends its turn in its space.


Exorcise: Arcana DC 19 or Religion DC 14 (standard action). Requirement: The character must be adjacent to one of the three corpses. Success; The corpse’s restless spirit is laid to rest, preventing the river from choosing that spirit when it makes an attack. The haunted river is disabled once all three spirits have been laid to rest, and any wraiths still active in the area are destroyed.


Howl of Doom (psychic, thunder) Encounter Attack: Close blast 5 (enemies in the blast); +10 vs. Will Hit: 2d10 + 11 thunder damage, and the target is cursed. Until the target is no longer cursed, it takes 3 psychic damage whenever it misses every target with an attack power. At the end of each extended rest the target takes, it makes a DC 16 Religion check to try to end the curse. First Failed Check: The psychic damage increases to 6. Second Failed Check: The psychic damage increases to 9. Third Failed Check: The target dies.


A splash of holy water or a ritual prayer requiring a standard action and a successful DC 21 Religion check consecrates the grave dirt, preventing Yorn from using his grave healing trait.


Once they have Blink or his corpse in custody, the characters can return to Baron’s Hill and lay the goblin to rest in Fin’s grave. If Blink is still animate, the characters must bind him to keep him from digging his way out. Alternatively, a holy prayer accompanied by a successful DC 14 Religion check might be enough to consecrate the ground around the entombed zombie and restrain it indefinitely.


If adjacent to the echo, an enemy can attempt an Arcana, Nature, or Religion check (DC 13 as a standard action; DC 20 as a minor action) against the echo. If the check succeeds, the echo takes 1 damage.


Religion (DC 13): The character prays or channels divine energy into the circle, countering its evil.


Shutdown: Physical damage cannot disturb the crystal island or sever the strands. If the characters can accumulate three successes with DC 35 Arcana checks or Religion checks (each a standard action) in 1 round, they can turn off the flow of souls through the wrong strand for 24 hours. A character who fails one of these checks takes 30 necrotic and radiant damage.


The portal cannot be closed while Flame’s magic is at work on the other side of it. Flame also enhanced the portal with protective magic. While within 20 squares of the portal, any creature that does not worship Tiamat takes a -2 penalty to all defenses and saving throws. As a minor action, a creature can steel itself against this magic by succeeding on a DC 35 Arcana check, Endurance check, Insight check, or Religion check. Success indicates the creature is immune to the effect until the start of its next turn.


A character who succeeds on an Arcana check or Religion check (DC 37 as a minor action; DC 28 as a standard action) suppresses the effect of one pillar until the end of the character’s next turn.


At first, he sticks to his story-he’s a simple tinker who got caught up in affairs beyond his understanding. He professes ignorance as to why he attacked the characters, suggesting he might have been possessed by a demon. The story is unlikely, especially since the characters can detect no magic and no telltale signs of a demonic possession (Arcana check or Religion check DC 12; Insight DC 17 to detect the bluff).


Arcana DC 13: The water tentacles can be banished with an Arcana or Religion check.


+ Destroy: Arcana or Religion (standard action from up to 5 squares away): DC 13 destroys 1 tentacle in range, DC 20 destroys 2 tentacles in
range. Failure (8 or lower): A tentacle uses slam as a free action.


This challenge begins once the characters interact with the Voidharrow basin (the red tile on the tactical map). When a character who has training in Arcana, Nature, or Religion comes within 5 squares of the basin, he or she instantly understands that this source of the abyssal plague is leaking, like corrupt blood, into this reality from another dimension. Draining energy from the basin should close the opening between the worlds.


Arcana or Religion (DC 19 as a minor action; DC 12 as a standard action): The character causes every column to release a burst of blinding radiance. Any enemy within 2 squares of any pillar when this energy is triggered is blinded until the end of its next turn. The pillars then continue to glow for a time, bathing the area in bright, warm light for an hour.


Summoning: While standing in a rune square, an adventurer can summon an elemental by making a successful DC 19 Arcana check, Nature check, or Religion check. (Jarren gains a +2 bonus to such checks.) Up to three adventurers, each of whom must also stand in a rune square, can assist the primary summoner.

---

You'll also notice (like in the case of the Lightning Pillar Terrain Power) that Arcana, Nature, and Religion are bundled together as the activiating/countermeasure Skill. There is a reason for this:

Arcana = Wizard = associated with spells to draw upon the magical energy that permeates the cosmos.
Nature = Druid = associated with invocations to draw upon the primal spirits and energy that invested the dawn of the world.
Religion = Cleric = associated with prayers answered by the gods.

That isn't a happy accident that those are bundled together.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Ok, I’m mega-time limited, so I can’t answer all of your stuff right now @Voadam @Baron Opal II (I’ll try to get to it tonight). But why do you think I threw together that Nomogical Network above? It wasn't an accident. I was addressing specific claims by drawing upon various concepts in 4e, how they manifest in the imagined space, and what is at the intersection of all of that.

I definitely appreciate the time you take in explaining your point of view. Thank you.
However, you are coming from a 4e POV, I'm coming from an 1e POV, on a 5e board.

Two important claims I was addressing were:

Gods don't answer mundane prayer/recitation/ceremony.

and

Mundane prayer/recitation/ceremony doesn't restore hit points (and its proxy or component part in 4e; flagging spirits, resolve, steadfastness).

So, with that said:

1) With respect to the above claims, what work do you think (1) in my post above is doing?

2) With respect to the above claims, what work do you think (3) is doing?

With 1), nothing. Hit points are, have been, and always will be nebulous as to what they represent. Your comment that use of the Religion skill to sooth and calm in no way implies it is a direct path to healing, and in fact is explicitly a lore skill. It does unlock some abilities if your are trained in it, which are enumerated and specific.

With 3), vague alignment. They're not divine, but mundane, however. Let's actually look at your statements.

Gods don't answer mundane prayer/recitation/ceremony.

Of course they do. The numinous powers do as they will.

Mundane prayer/recitation/ceremony doesn't restore hit points (and its proxy or component part in 4e; flagging spirits, resolve, steadfastness).

It might, but then it's not divine. It's mundane, which isn't divine, or arcane, or primal, &c.

Mundane (sans Divine keyword) prayer/recitiation/ceremony restores hit points (flagging spirits, resolve, steadfastness) and provides other protections because those mundane prayers are answers.

This is doublethink. Is it mundane, or is it divine? You want it both ways. If the divine is answering a prayer, it's divine action.

Does the fighter find a space of calm within and gather strength to him, boosting his resolve? Sure, no problem. It's not divine and there is no prayer answered. It's all internal, regardless of result.

Does the fighter make an earnest and passionate plea to the numinous, and find he or another benefits from some benevolence? Sure, no problem. The divine heard the call and responded. But, it's a divine action and not mundane.

This line of discussion is wholly orthogonal to the OP's question. Because, even with the mundane, yet divine, but really still mundane non-magical unconnected to the numinous Faith Healing daily you mentioned, the answer is still "the fighter doesn't need to make a Religion check". Because there aren't any rules for Divine Intervention in 4e as customarily defined in other editions. He just uses the power that the player had the foresight or theme to choose.

If it is supernatural action, then it's supernatural action. I can accept that warlords can inspire and motivate other to "ignore wounds" to complete the task at had. But that's not supernatural, it's mundane, by definition. (Well, "martial", which I don't think was ever defined much more than "action movie" logic.)

Here's the question, again:

The fighter's friend is hurt, even dying. The fighter prays to the gods to heal their friend. How is this action resolved? If it's a Religion or similar sort of check, what's the DC?

How do you answer this in 5e? In 4e? In AD&D? There are no Daily powers left, the Encounter powers are consumed. No time for rests, Long or Short. Potions are broken, seeping into the cracks on the floor.

There is no defined answer except at the individual table level. Despite our disagreement on whether or not some powers are divine, mundane, or whatever in 4e, this situation is undefined. Why are we arguing about 4e? If you want it to be the player makes an earnest prayer and the character tries for a DC: 20 Religion check, with a success allowing the target to auto-stabilize / spend a healing surge / gain 1d3 hp, that's great! But, that's not in the book, it's a decision for and by the table.

 

[Manbearcat]

@Baron Opal II The usage of “mundane” here is about “who is beseeching the gods for a miracle/intervention.” It has been contended upthread that prayers must be gated behind “clergy status” (in D&D parlance “Cleric or Paladin class investment”). So a mother who is a member of the laity and cries out in desperate prayer for the life of her child need not apply; never in the history of the world would such a legend come to pass.

So it’s not where the power comes from (that is clearly divine in origin)…it’s that you’re not a bonafide member of the clergy who draws upon the Divine Power Source as a matter of course (therefore you’re “mundane”…like the mother).

As far as 4e vs 5e…while this thread is actually in D&D General (not 5e), and the lead post didn’t invoke a particular edition, I had been speaking in terms of 5e handling of this prospective action declaration until only recent (your exchanges with ER and pemerton, I think(?), caused me to involve myself).

 

[Imaro]

@Baron Opal II The usage of “mundane” here is about “who is beseeching the gods for a miracle/intervention.” It has been contended upthread that prayers must be gated behind “clergy status” (in D&D parlance “Cleric or Paladin class investment”). So a mother who is a member of the laity and cries out in desperate prayer for the life of her child need not apply; never in the history of the world would such a legend come to pass.

So it’s not where the power comes from (that is clearly divine in origin)…it’s that you’re not a bonafide member of the clergy who draws upon the Divine Power Source as a matter of course (therefore you’re “mundane”…like the mother).

Wait what? 4e uses keywords to determine whether something originates from the divine power source. Do any of the skill powers you listed have that keyword (I honestly don't know but assume you would have pointed that out to strengthen your argument if they did)? if not they are not divine in origin...

 

[Baron Opal II]

@Baron Opal II The usage of “mundane” here is about “who is beseeching the gods for a miracle/intervention.” It has been contended upthread that prayers must be gated behind “clergy status” (in D&D parlance “Cleric or Paladin class investment”). So a mother who is a member of the laity and cries out in desperate prayer for the life of her child need not apply; never in the history of the world would such a legend come to pass.

Well, that's different, isn't it? I thought you were arguing that the divine aid wasn't divine. Glad we cleared that up.

 

[Imaro]

Come on man. This is invoking the squishy "HPs are meat when I want them to be even though there are no wounds in D&D as a function of HP" axiom. We've done this a million jillion times. HP aren't meat. "Dying" in D&D is just fluff. If you're not dead, you're wholly uninjured. You don't have a shoulder separation that causes you to be unable to use your sword arm or a sucking wound that saps your oxygen uptake or a torn ACL in your knee that makes you hobbled etc etc etc.

No it's really not, it's letting the fiction and narrative inform when a mechanic is purposefully nebulous and can represent numerous things. Dying on the other hand is I assume being at 0 hit points (otherwise why differentiate it from being wounded) and at tat point you are not capable of using your sword, are unconscious and are making death saves so a far cry from being wholly uninjured and yet you're not dead either.

And this?

I noticed you used the word "techniques" and "religious rhetoric" here rather than prayers. Alright, lets go back to all of these not-Divine (meaning these are not powers afforded to clergy) and apparently "techniques" "religious rhetoric" rather than..."(mundane) prayers (answered":

Not-Divine as in missing the keyword which means magic originating from the gods....

PHB pg 54; Divine: Divine magic comes from the gods. The gods grant power to their devotees, which clerics and paladins, for example, access through prayers and litanies. Divine magic excels at healing, protection, and smiting the enemies of the gods. Divine powers are called prayers.

The Divine keyword is what signifies something is using the magic that comes from the gods.

Faith Healing Religion Utility 2
Your prayers help an ally recover from injury.

Deliverance of Faith Religion Utility 6​

You give of yourself in the belief that somewhere, something will give a little back.

Conviction Religion Utility 10​

You whisper a prayer for aid to overcome hardship.

Recitation Religion Utility 10​

You echo your allies' prayers to give them strength.

Do any of these powers have the divine keyword? If not I stand by what I said, call them prayers, mumbles chants, whatever... they don't use divine magic.

Alright, here is some more (mundane) Religion usage in Dungeon Mag from exorcism to channeling to banishing to consecrating to summoning to unlocking latent power to lifting curses to turning enemies to dust to steeling yourself against powerful magic to turning off flow of souls etc:


The corpse falls silent once the evil inhabitants in Starhaunt are slain. A one-minute rite that requires a DC 31 Religion check to perform correctly can also silence the restless corpse.

The magic is in the rite... you just need to perform it correctly... just like using a magic item. Mundane usage

+ Oppose: Arcana, Nature, or Religion DC 33 (standard action). Requirement: The character must be trained in the skill used. Success: The vortex takes 3d10 + 12 psychic damage. Failure (28 or lower): All enemies in the vortex take 10 psychic damage.

Don't have any context for this so not sure what's going on. What is the vortext, where are the PC's?

A character standing on or adjacent to the runic circle can neutralize it with a successful DC 23 Religion check (a standard action). A second successful check consecrates the circle, at which point it deals 10 radiant damage to any undead creature that enters the circle or ends its turn in its space.

Again manipulation of a magic item (runic circle). Mundane usage with the magic coming from the circle

Exorcise: Arcana DC 19 or Religion DC 14 (standard action). Requirement: The character must be adjacent to one of the three corpses. Success; The corpse’s restless spirit is laid to rest, preventing the river from choosing that spirit when it makes an attack. The haunted river is disabled once all three spirits have been laid to rest, and any wraiths still active in the area are destroyed.

Again... no context... this is just a skill check, what's the fiction accompanying it.

Howl of Doom (psychic, thunder) Encounter Attack: Close blast 5 (enemies in the blast); +10 vs. Will Hit: 2d10 + 11 thunder damage, and the target is cursed. Until the target is no longer cursed, it takes 3 psychic damage whenever it misses every target with an attack power. At the end of each extended rest the target takes, it makes a DC 16 Religion check to try to end the curse. First Failed Check: The psychic damage increases to 6. Second Failed Check: The psychic damage increases to 9. Third Failed Check: The target dies.

Again uncertain what is happening here... is this really how so many 4e encounters were written with little to no context to the fiction. If I had to guess I would say leaning on religious teachings to fortify one's mental fortitude to resist a psychic attack... but again not inherently supernatural.

A splash of holy water or a ritual prayer requiring a standard action and a successful DC 21 Religion check consecrates the grave dirt, preventing Yorn from using his grave healing trait.

It's the holy water and/or ritual that contain the magic... can you use them correctly is what the roll is for.

Once they have Blink or his corpse in custody, the characters can return to Baron’s Hill and lay the goblin to rest in Fin’s grave. If Blink is still animate, the characters must bind him to keep him from digging his way out. Alternatively, a holy prayer accompanied by a successful DC 14 Religion check might be enough to consecrate the ground around the entombed zombie and restrain it indefinitely.

Might?? This is the only one where the effect seems to be coming from a mundane prayer itself and it also seems even the writers recognize this is in the realm of DM fiat.

If adjacent to the echo, an enemy can attempt an Arcana, Nature, or Religion check (DC 13 as a standard action; DC 20 as a minor action) against the echo. If the check succeeds, the echo takes 1 damage.

Again...context is needed

Religion (DC 13): The character prays or channels divine energy into the circle, countering its evil.

manipulation of magical terrain.

Shutdown: Physical damage cannot disturb the crystal island or sever the strands. If the characters can accumulate three successes with DC 35 Arcana checks or Religion checks (each a standard action) in 1 round, they can turn off the flow of souls through the wrong strand for 24 hours. A character who fails one of these checks takes 30 necrotic and radiant damage

Manipulation of the crystals. They are literally reversing the polarity... but they aren't generating magic themselves or creating a magical effect

The portal cannot be closed while Flame’s magic is at work on the other side of it. Flame also enhanced the portal with protective magic. While within 20 squares of the portal, any creature that does not worship Tiamat takes a -2 penalty to all defenses and saving throws. As a minor action, a creature can steel itself against this magic by succeeding on a DC 35 Arcana check, Endurance check, Insight check, or Religion check. Success indicates the creature is immune to the effect until the start of its next turn.


A character who succeeds on an Arcana check or Religion check (DC 37 as a minor action; DC 28 as a standard action) suppresses the effect of one pillar until the end of the character’s next turn.

Manipulation of devices

At first, he sticks to his story-he’s a simple tinker who got caught up in affairs beyond his understanding. He professes ignorance as to why he attacked the characters, suggesting he might have been possessed by a demon. The story is unlikely, especially since the characters can detect no magic and no telltale signs of a demonic possession (Arcana check or Religion check DC 12; Insight DC 17 to detect the bluff).

This is literally using knowledge of subjects to detect a lie.

Arcana DC 13: The water tentacles can be banished with an Arcana or Religion check.


+ Destroy: Arcana or Religion (standard action from up to 5 squares away): DC 13 destroys 1 tentacle in range, DC 20 destroys 2 tentacles in
range. Failure (8 or lower): A tentacle uses slam as a free action.


This challenge begins once the characters interact with the Voidharrow basin (the red tile on the tactical map). When a character who has training in Arcana, Nature, or Religion comes within 5 squares of the basin, he or she instantly understands that this source of the abyssal plague is leaking, like corrupt blood, into this reality from another dimension. Draining energy from the basin should close the opening between the worlds.


Arcana or Religion (DC 19 as a minor action; DC 12 as a standard action): The character causes every column to release a burst of blinding radiance. Any enemy within 2 squares of any pillar when this energy is triggered is blinded until the end of its next turn. The pillars then continue to glow for a time, bathing the area in bright, warm light for an hour.


Summoning: While standing in a rune square, an adventurer can summon an elemental by making a successful DC 19 Arcana check, Nature check, or Religion check. (Jarren gains a +2 bonus to such checks.) Up to three adventurers, each of whom must also stand in a rune square, can assist the primary summoner.

This are all either specific interactions (usually with a specific rite, magic item/terrain, etc.), missing so much context that if they were written up like that I'd argue the authors didn't have a clear idea of what was going on or the one example where the word might is used... they are not allowing you to create a magical effect through the use of the skill but using the skill to determine if you already know how to use the divine magic present in something else.

---

You'll also notice (like in the case of the Lightning Pillar Terrain Power) that Arcana, Nature, and Religion are bundled together as the activiating/countermeasure Skill. There is a reason for this:

Arcana = Wizard = associated with spells to draw upon the magical energy that permeates the cosmos.
Nature = Druid = associated with invocations to draw upon the primal spirits and energy that invested the dawn of the world.
Religion = Cleric = associated with prayers answered by the gods.

That isn't a happy accident that those are bundled together.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. It's still the skill being used to manipulate magic in an item... not you casting some type of protection spell...The description of the skills states

RELIGION (INTELLIGENCE)
You have picked up knowledge about gods, religious traditions and ceremonies, divine effects, holy
symbols, and theology. This knowledge extends to information about the undead and the Astral Sea, including the creatures of that plane. If you have selected this skill as a trained skill, your knowledge represents academic study, either formalized or as a hobby, and you have a better chance of knowing esoteric information in this field.

 

[Staffan]

To me, this seems hard to distinguish from an atheistic world (I would include REH's Hyborian Age in that category).

It doesn't fit with the default presentation of D&D worlds, with active gods who take an intense interest in mortal affairs.

It's not incompatible with proven deities frolicking around the Outer Planes, as long as they stay there. But yes, I very much prefer worlds where gods do not directly interfere except possibly in subtle ways, because divine intervention takes the spotlight away from the people who are supposed to be the stars of the story. There's a reason people generally do not like "Deus ex Machina" solutions to things.

As for what that does to faith... allow me to quote one of my favorite books:

"Thank you. Now...tell me..."
WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF YOU HADN'T SAVED HIM?
"Yes! The sun would have risen just the same, yes?"
NO.
"Oh, come on. You can't expect me to believe that. It's an astronomical fact."
THE SUN WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN.
She turned on him.
"It's been a long night, Grandfather. I'm tired and I need a bath! I don't need silliness!"
THE SUN WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN.
"Really? Then what would have happened, pray?"
A MERE BALL OF FLAMING GAS WOULD HAVE ILLUMINATED THE WORLD.

 

[Manbearcat]

Do any of these powers have the divine keyword? If not I stand by what I said, call them prayers, mumbles chants, whatever... they don't use divine magic.



The magic is in the rite... you just need to perform it correctly... just like using a magic item. Mundane usage



Don't have any context for this so not sure what's going on. What is the vortext, where are the PC's?



Again manipulation of a magic item (runic circle). Mundane usage with the magic coming from the circle



Again... no context... this is just a skill check, what's the fiction accompanying it.



Again uncertain what is happening here... is this really how so many 4e encounters were written with little to no context to the fiction. If I had to guess I would say leaning on religious teachings to fortify one's mental fortitude to resist a psychic attack... but again not inherently supernatural.



It's the holy water and/or ritual that contain the magic... can you use them correctly is what the roll is for.



Might?? This is the only one where the effect seems to be coming from a mundane prayer itself and it also seems even the writers recognize this is in the realm of DM fiat.



Again...context is needed



manipulation of magical terrain.


Manipulation of the crystals. They are literally reversing the polarity... but they aren't generating magic themselves or creating a magical effect



Manipulation of devices



This is literally using knowledge of subjects to detect a lie.



This are all either specific interactions (usually with a specific rite, magic item/terrain, etc.), missing so much context that if they were written up like that I'd argue the authors didn't have a clear idea of what was going on or the one example where the word might is used... they are not allowing you to create a magical effect through the use of the skill but using the skill to determine if you already know how to use the divine magic present in something else.

This feels like a Monty Python satire. Like we keep escalating from lifting curses to exorcism to channeling to summoning to turning tentacles to dust with a word...to outright divine apotheosis and on the last you say something like "........................................Divin.......inator...9000...yeah, yeah that's! The Divinator9000 is responsible. Its just mundane mastery of a weird machine like a sheet-metal cutter...that apotheosisinates folks! Mundane!"

Not-Divine as in missing the keyword which means magic originating from the gods....

PHB pg 54; Divine: Divine magic comes from the gods. The gods grant power to their devotees, which clerics and paladins, for example, access through prayers and litanies. Divine magic excels at healing, protection, and smiting the enemies of the gods. Divine powers are called prayers.

The Divine keyword is what signifies something is using the magic that comes from the gods.

You've got 3 huge confounds to this position.

1) Worlds and Monsters which came out before 4e and explained the setting:

W&M p 13

Remote Gods: (unrelated text)...They aren’t omniscient or omnipotent, but they do grant spells to clerics and hear the prayers of their faithful.

2) My (2) in the initial post; Rituals keying off of Religion. These are not Divine Power Sourced. You don't have to have Divine Power Source as prereq to employ them and you don't gain Divine Power Source with Ritualist. So, while you can try Divin-inator9000 away the entire Dungeon Mag improvised usage of Religion (which doesn't have Divine Power Source connected to it), Rituals are a giant, gaping confounder to your position (which is why they were included in the initial post).

So through NON DIVINE POWER SOURCE Religion Rituals, you can:

• Create persistent light from nothing.
• Purify pestilential/fetid water.
• Speak and understand languages you wouldn't otherwise.
• Speak with the dead.
• Call upon mystical sages from the Astral or elsewhere for auguries.
• Transport yourself and your allies to the Astral Sea.
• Summon a demon or adjure one.
• Demand an audience with an exarch of fate from Avandra, Ioun, Pelor, or the Raven Queen.

And much more. Without Divine Power Source.

3) In The Manual of Planes and The Planes Above (2009 and 2010), Heinsoo et al explained in more detail how (2) can happen and what the Divine Power Source fully entails. Its about actually becoming a member of the clergy, the initiated via rituals specific to the faith/god and being anointed with specific divine prowess as a result. That is it. They get a suite of clergy/anointed-specific prowess/capabilities that those without Divine Power Source don't have access to...just like the Sohei (priest) gets the same thing (access to specific Sohei themed Divine Power Source powers) or Paragon Paths that are holy orders do. They draw their power from the Astral Sea via their god investing them because of ritual initiation into the clergy/ranks, servitude, etc.

p16
Player characters and other powerful beings that draw on the divine power source typically earn their powers through investiture. Neither a, deity nor its servitors needs to personally empower a cleric's prayers; rather, the cleric has gained the ability to control divine magic through
an initiation ritual particular to his or her god.

Divine Power Source is a specific type of access to holy stuff. But it isn't the only game in town. And gods or angels or exarchs or other powers hear the prayers of the faithful. And other terrible powers are apt to hear them as well (Demons or Devils or Far Realm entities) and would be all to happy to grant the wishes of the desperate...at a price.

I mean...we're probably done here at this point. But you can have the last word.

 

[Imaro]

This feels like a Monty Python satire. Like we keep escalating from lifting curses to exorcism to channeling to summoning to turning tentacles to dust with a word...to outright divine apotheosis and on the last you say something like "........................................Divin.......inator...9000...yeah, yeah that's! The Divinator9000 is responsible. Its just mundane mastery of a weird machine like a sheet-metal cutter...that apotheosisinates folks! Mundane!"

I think you're failing to understand or as you said earlier unable to entertain you might be incorrect... Nothing you've presented actually shows someone's prayers being answered by a divine being. You can choose to layer that fiction on top of it if you want to but nothing you've presented actually supports that plain and simple. Show me a clear example of supernatural divine power being invested in someone through prayers... not your subjective interpretation of what is taking place but an actual example.

You've got 3 huge confounds to this position.

1) Worlds and Monsters which came out before 4e and explained the setting:

W&M p 13

Remote Gods: (unrelated text)...They aren’t omniscient or omnipotent, but they do grant spells to clerics and hear the prayers of their faithful.

So they grant spells to clerics and... hear?? prayers... Why not say they act on prayers, provide divine power or miracles? Why? because it's left intentionally vague so the DM can decide.

2) My (2) in the initial post; Rituals keying off of Religion. These are not Divine Power Sourced. You don't have to have Divine Power Source as prereq to employ them and you don't gain Divine Power Source with Ritualist. So, while you can try Divin-inator9000 away the entire Dungeon Mag improvised usage of Religion (which doesn't have Divine Power Source connected to it), Rituals are a giant, gaping confounder to your position (which is why they were included in the initial post).

So through NON DIVINE POWER SOURCE Religion Rituals, you can:

• Create persistent light from nothing.
• Purify pestilential/fetid water.
• Speak and understand languages you wouldn't otherwise.
• Speak with the dead.
• Call upon mystical sages from the Astral or elsewhere for auguries.
• Transport yourself and your allies to the Astral Sea.
• Summon a demon or adjure one.
• Demand an audience with an exarch of fate from Avandra, Ioun, Pelor, or the Raven Queen.

And much more. Without Divine Power Source.

Rituals and rites are magical in and of themselves... they are a tool and your roll is to use them correctly, in the same way a scroll can allow someone to use magic but isn't them casting magic or being granted it directly by a greater power because they mumbled a prayer or arcane giberish. I'm arguing against the default being a divine being hearing prayers and granting miracles as a default in 4e. In all the examples you've provided it's starnge that this is considered a conceit of the world by you and some others and yet we haven't seen a single example of it... should be pretty easy to provide

3) In The Manual of Planes and The Planes Above (2009 and 2010), Heinsoo et al explained in more detail how (2) can happen and what the Divine Power Source fully entails. Its about actually becoming a member of the clergy, the initiated via rituals specific to the faith/god and being anointed with specific divine prowess as a result. That is it. They get a suite of clergy/anointed-specific prowess/capabilities that those without Divine Power Source don't have access to...just like the Sohei (priest) gets the same thing (access to specific Sohei themed Divine Power Source powers) or Paragon Paths that are holy orders do. They draw their power from the Astral Sea via their god investing them because of ritual servitude etc.

And thus this is the only thing that calls out divine beings granting something specifically... right?

p16
Player characters and other powerful beings that draw on the divine power source typically earn their powers through investiture. Neither a, deity nor its servitors needs to personally empower a cleric's prayers; rather, the cleric has gained the ability to control divine magic through
an initiation ritual particular to his or her god.

Divine Power Source is a specific type of access to holy stuff. But it isn't the only game in town. And gods or angels or exarchs or other powers hear the prayers of the faithful. And other terrible powers are apt to hear them as well (Demons or Devils or Far Realm entities) and would be all to happy to grant the wishes of the desperate...at a price.

I never claimed it was "the only game in town" otherwise I wouldn't have agreed with DM fiat being viable earlier in the thread. What I'm not agreeing with is that somehow mumbling a prayer and a divine being granting you power because of it is any more the default fiction-wise or mechanical-wise than it is in any other edition of D&D, which is to say up to DM fiat.

I mean...we're probably done here at this point. But you can have the last word.

Thanks, don't mind if I do...

 

[Chaosmancer]

Because it is wholly undefined. The only mechanic we have in 5e for Divine Intervention is solely in the cleric's domain. So, be default, the fighter in question can't. In 4e Divine Intervention is undefined as well, there isn't a mechanic for it.* So in 4e the fighter can't either. In AD&D the fighter could, and there is a defined mechanic. Unlikely, but possible.

Okay, but this ISN'T the Divine Intervention ability (which sucks HARD and I'd never use for the cleric trying the same thing) because Divine Intervention can replicate any level spell, and usually is doing a 3rd to 7th level spell effect.

We are talking at cantrip at best, and a completely mundane bandage at worst. Yes, the flavor is similar to divine intervention, but if I had a cleric actually roll the 10% chance to use that ability and the DM gave me Spare the Dying... I'd actually be kind of pissed. So saying this is impossible because the fighter isn't a 10th level cleric seems very limiting, because what the cleric can do with that ability is far beyond what the fighter is attempting.

pemerton gave us two examples of how he steps outside the given ruleset and allowed the action to occur.** It was an ad hoc ruling within the scope of the table's play. And that's fine. The rule set doesn't matter, it is a style of play.

So we circle back again to the question being in regard to style of play not rules of play. The answer to the original question is "Not Applicable - the character and skill are unable to achieve this goal." Could you allow this? Sure, make a rule that allows for such, and adjust the rule as necessary to prevent abuse. Should you allow this? That's for the individual table to decide.

Interestingly to me, the OP and the example are at odds with me. I was thinking of low level characters from the example, because higher level characters would have other options. But, that's me.

But the character doesn't need any skill. I think that's where my confusion is coming from. This is a narrative moment, a "table style" if you want, but it absolutely does not require any skill.

Miracles aren't something you gain skill in doing. I think this is why this feels like it should be special to me. Because this is exactly the set-up for a miracle, and it feels utterly bizarre to say "DnD is not a game that allows for miracles."

And, no, I don't think the clerics or paladins abilities are miracles, because they are reliable and don't need any story prompts (except for Divine Intervention, which is a terrible mechanic because it is trying to give mechanical rules to miracles.)