D&D General What's the DC for a fighter to heal their ally with a prayer?

[pemerton]

If the powers work without faith in the gods, then the gods aren't necessary for "divine" magic.

Isn't it possible that, for whatever reason, the gods are empowering the faithless?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Isn't it possible that, for whatever reason, the gods are empowering the faithless?

That makes no sense to me, and in any case it has nothing to do with what's in the books, which I believe is what's at issue.

 

[pemerton]

That makes no sense to me

A wonderful literary treatment (in the Catholic rather than pagan context) is Graham Greene's The End of the Affair.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It already is like that. If the powers work without faith in the gods, then the gods aren't necessary for "divine" magic. On the other hand, D&D is explicitly set in the Multiverse, and most of the Multiverse is full of gods, so gods definitely exist. There's zero mystery about either question.

Which is why I utterly reject Eberron being part of the multiverse with full throated enthusiasm. Because it takes one of the most fascinating aspects of the setting, spits on it, then drives a spear through its heart.

I have no problem with the gods being canonically and obviously real in every other setting (for the pendants "except Athas where they are canonically dead") but that cannot be the case for Eberron, despite what WoTC wants for a unified theory of multiversal DnD.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That makes no sense to me, and in any case it has nothing to do with what's in the books, which I believe is what's at issue.

"That makes no sense to me" does not equal "is not possible" just to note.

 

[Voadam]

And I think that is very intentional. Eberron wants it to be a question. Are these the workings of Gods, or simply the faith of men?

Or the power of men to work magic without gods or faith.

But I think for it to be a question in the setting, it has to be capable of working both ways. I think that is why in 5e it was presented both ways. There are the gods and they do stuff. But other people don't believe the gods are real (or that they are actively malicious), and they can do the same stuff because they believe in themselves. Both sides say the other is delusional, and that what is really happening is their version of events.

To keep the mystery and keep the flavor, you have to allow both to happen and both to feel real, otherwise it ends up being a bit "People don't know the answer, but here is the right answer" which is completely against Eberron's philosophy.

The mystery is generally strongest if ambiguity is logically possible. But the possibility of it being entirely faith based is something that can be tested for evidence incompatible with the theory. If a faithless cleric can do divine magic it is not faith based.

Another option though is that the divine includes transcendent reality or paradox and can not be understood by mortals. "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines" There is a theory that Egyptian gods had animal heads on people bodies to show that while they were partially relatable and act as people characters in stories, they are fundamentally not understandable people.

 

[Voadam]

It already is like that. If the powers work without faith in the gods, then the gods aren't necessary for "divine" magic. On the other hand, D&D is explicitly set in the Multiverse, and most of the Multiverse is full of gods, so gods definitely exist. There's zero mystery about either question.

Gods could still be necessary for divine magic without requiring faith.

The gods could grant divine magic and not care about faith.

The gods could be the passive source of divine magic that clerics tap for their divine magic without using faith. Kill the gods and no more divine magic.

 

[Voadam]

Isn't it possible that, for whatever reason, the gods are empowering the faithless?

Logically possible, but that would still show that the individual's faith is not directly powering divine magic. It could be faith powers the gods who power the divine magic of clerics (even faithless ones) but it would not be the cleric's faith that powers the cleric's spells directly.

 

[Micah Sweet]

"That makes no sense to me" does not equal "is not possible" just to note.

Sure, but it does equal "is not possible" as far as I'm concerned.

 

[pemerton]

Logically possible, but that would still show that the individual's faith is not directly powering divine magic. It could be faith powers the gods who power the divine magic of clerics (even faithless ones) but it would not be the cleric's faith that powers the cleric's spells directly.

To me it seems quite possible that a mysterious god would empower some faithful, because they are faithful, and empower some non-faithful, as a sign to the world of the god's power and presence.

I don't want to cross the boundary set by board rules, but what I describe in the above paragraph is not foreign to human thought about religion.