What's up with Finesse?

[Tessarael]

It was a design mistake. This why all the animals et al. with 0 base attack bonus and better Dexterity than Strength have to be given Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, because they couldn't select it otherwise.

 

[0-hr]

Because rogues aren't... fighters. A 1st level rogue is by definition not an accomplished fencer. If he were, he would be a fighter, a swashbuckler... or not 1st level.

But a 2nd level wizard with 6 STR and 4 DEX has no problem mastering the estotric combat style of Weapon Finesse should he care too. Makes perfect sense.

 

[pawsplay]

But a 2nd level wizard with 6 STR and 4 DEX has no problem mastering the estotric combat style of Weapon Finesse should he care too. Makes perfect sense.

Why not? He's seen between two and thirteen times as much lethal combat. Actually, though, a wizard won't land that feat until 3rd level, either. By that point, he has nearly as many hit points as a 1st level fighter, possibly more.

 

[Loincloth of Armour]

And why do you believe there are no archery rogues at 1st level...?

I've seen 1st level archery rogues. I've played 1st level archery rogues. And I had choices to make about my 1st level feat as opposed to saying, "With my high dex my ranged attack will be on par with the fighter (the guy who doesn't have nearly the same number of skills as me)... why not a feat that allows me to be as good as him in melee combat as well!"

At 1st level a rogue is the skill monkey. Leave the best combat options to the guys who actually train to hit people with sticks.

Not in my experience. Rogues tend to be ranged fighters or reach weapon fighters from what I have seen. Melee fighting rogues don't live long, unless they have increased their constitution to the point where they are either no longer skills monkeys at the same rate as other rogues, or no longer have as high a dex.

*shrug* Different experiences. In my games rogues do quite well in melee combat. Of course they don't rush in, but wait until the fighter is already chopping heads then tumble into position to flank and sneak attack.

 

[hong]

why not a feat that allows me to be as good as him in melee combat as well!"

Because you want to get a feat that lets you be better than him in ranged combat. Duh!

At 1st level a rogue is the skill monkey. Leave the best combat options to the guys who actually train to hit people with sticks.

And is taking Weapon Finesse not training to hit people with sticks? Graceful hitting perhaps, but still hitting.

 

[DJCupboard]

Weapon Finesse at first level wouldn't make a rogue as good a melee combatant as a fighter. Let's say a strong (18 str) fighter and a dextrous (18 dex) rogue walk into the same fight. The strong fighter adds 4 from strength and 1 from BAB. The Dextrous rogue without weapon finesse adds whatever low str he has (let's arbitrarily say 13, so +1) to a 0 BAB. The fighter is ahead by 4. Now let's add weapon finesse to the rogue. The fighter is still swinging a 5, but the optimized rogue is swinging a 4 (18 dex + 0 BAB), not exactly what I would call an equal combatant, especially since there aren't any dex to damage feats and he is most likely swinging a short sword. Let's give the rogue the best possible outcome and say he successfully sneak attacks (but does not crit). He'll be doing greatsword damage, but still only have a +1 to damage from strength, compared to the fighter who could be using an actual greatsword for greatsword damage, wielded two-handed for strength and a half (6 in this case) damage. So the rogue with a feat he is not allowed to take will get a score 1 lower for the attack role and do 5 less damage, which at first level is at least one entire mook's worth of hp. And we didn't even let the fighter take his first two feats yet.

DJC

 

[Aaron L]

I would do 2 things:

- Remove the +1 BAB prereq for Weapon Finesse

- Add an "Improved Finesse" feat that lets you use Dex with weapons not normally finessable. You need Str 13 to use this feat with a 2-handed weapon (which cuts down on the temptation to make Str a dump stat).

Wow hong, I really like this and am going to steal it.

 

[Nail]

What was the reasoning behind making it impossible for a class such as a Bard or Rogue from being able to take Weapon Finesse at 1st level?

So that a Rog 1 cannot hit as well as a Ftr 1, of course!

Looks like a good idea to me.

 

[Voadam]

Weapon finesse with a dex build still leaves you a poorer melee attacker than a str build. You will hit as often with your finessable weapon, but you don't get the damage bonus and the str build does not cost a feat.

1st level monks can't use weapon finesse either. And I believe melee combat is their schtick.

 

[Nail]

Weapon finesse with a dex build still leaves you a poorer melee attacker than a str build.

Sneak attack.