Whats Wrong with Ganking CRPG Stuff???

[Hussar]

Also, the whole thing about "d00d, buff me!!" and the other phrases you mention is that such things exist in D&D already, if various threads here on ENWorld are any indication. People have been complaining about stuff like Monty Haul campaigns and wierd players who brag about their "uber" wizards for a long time, probably a lot longer than they have been blaming Everquest for the problem. The memes come from the players, not the game, and there isn't a huge difference between videogame players and D&D players.

Gish anyone?

 

[Ranger REG]

What's wrong with stealing ideas from CRPGs?

Nothing wrong with stealing ideas from CRPGs. Just remember to tweak and expand it for tabletop gaming use. After all, in CRPGs, they restrict your range of options/choices.

 

[Henry]

But first, to address what you specifically mentioned... First, if videogames did not invent Mana Points, then who did? I know that system goes back at least as far as Dragon Quest in 1986, so if an RPG used that mechanic before then, I would like to know.

Mana points go back as far as Spell points in Tunnels and Trolls, near as I can tell, in the 1970's. Feats have their roots in GURPS advantages (I've heard it rumored that some of the 3E designers were inspired for feats in Fallout's Perks system, which was a direct offshoot of GURPS, since fallout was supposed to be a GURPS game originally). The Difficulty Class system came from Ars Magica, near as anyone can figure out. And most other RPG innovations that I've heard of came were first fleshed out in either fiction or other RPGs first rather than from computer games.

Skies of Arcadia, Ar Tonelico, Atelier Iris, .hack//G.U., Wild ARMs, etc, all have elements that make for fun and interesting games that are completely unseen in tabletop RPGs.

I've decided you're right -- I clearly don't play enough video games, because I've never heard of any of those, prior to just now. I'm curious which ones in your opinion would have some ideas or mechanics that would really benefit any given RPG (not just D&D).

Also, the whole thing about "d00d, buff me!!" and the other phrases you mention is that such things exist in D&D already, if various threads here on ENWorld are any indication.

I'll have to agree to disagree on that one, because those phrasings and a lot of the sentiment behind them I never saw until the mid-1990s and the explosion of both computer games and MMO games that followed that period. Heck, I don't think I saw the "Gish" term Hussar mentioned misused until after Planescape:Torment.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Mana points go back as far as Spell points in Tunnels and Trolls, near as I can tell, in the 1970's. Feats have their roots in GURPS advantages (I've heard it rumored that some of the 3E designers were inspired for feats in Fallout's Perks system, which was a direct offshoot of GURPS, since fallout was supposed to be a GURPS game originally). The Difficulty Class system came from Ars Magica, near as anyone can figure out. And most other RPG innovations that I've heard of came were first fleshed out in either fiction or other RPGs first rather than from computer games.

I will concede the existence of MP-style systems before Dragon Quest, then. Since you didn't mention per-encounter balancing, I think I will take it that you accept videogames may have been an inspiration for the idea.

What do you mean by things being "fleshed out by fiction"? Rules do not exist in written fiction (and any good writer will tell you that any rule described in a text only exists to be broken).

I've decided you're right -- I clearly don't play enough video games, because I've never heard of any of those, prior to just now. I'm curious which ones in your opinion would have some ideas or mechanics that would really benefit any given RPG (not just D&D).

Hmm... this will take some thought...

I like Aterlier Iris 2's Mana Syntehsis concept, which lets people called Alchemists create an item through difficult, traditional alchemical means, and then make an potentially infinite number of copies of that item, even in the middle of battle, by using energy taken from deconstructing local matter.

The idea of Avatars from the .hack//G.U. videogames, is something so cool that I will make a D&D campaign based on the idea sooner or later. The .hack series is the odd concept of a single player game in which you control a guy playing in an MMORPG that has seemingly supernatural things occuring inside of it. An fascinating way of using a videogame to talk about videogame culture, really. Anyways, the "Avatars" are powerful super-AIs who personify themselves as glowing giants that are paired up with each of the major characters, allowing them to break the rules of the MMORPG that they play and do things that are not permitted by the game program. One major ability is Data Drain, the ability to absorb the data of a target, rewriting it completly and turning it into a useable item or piece of equipment.

The main premise of Wild ARMs is a wierd hybrid of Wild West gunslinging, traditional Fantasy settings, and a few nanotech demons and giant mechanical golems. The Force gauge, Force abilities, Wild ARMs 2/3 style force-dependant spells (based on having a minimum on the gauge, rather than consuming the guage), Mediums, and the HEX system... There are a lot of things here that are fairly unique. Maybe I'll get into this one later.

While the main gimmick of Shadow Hearts, the Judgement Ring, is wholly useless to tabletop games, the way it uses Sanity as a per-encounter resource that, in addition to providing a time-limit on a character's ability to fight, can be used up to allow powerful per-encounter abilities (like Yuri's demon transformations) is a great way to balance Lovecraftian horror with a long-running, fight against the horrors and maybe win kind of campaign.

Chrono Trigger's Dual Tech/Triple Tech system is very interesting because in that game an individual character's abilities are just building blocks for the much more powerful combination attacks two or more characters can use in tandem. A warrior's special sword attack and a mage's fire spell can be combined into a far more powerful hybrid attack. An Ice spell and a Fire spell cast by two mages can be forced together and trigger an Antipode/Reaction attack that results in a Shadow element spell, something neither mage can use on her own.

Similarly, in Breath of Fire 4, characters can chain together magical attacks, so that using a spell of a certain elemental after an elemental attack will lead to a much more powerful mixed element attack. The Dragon Gene system of Breath of Fire 3 and the even more amazing D-Dive/D-Counter systems of Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter deserve mention as well. The latter is the only good mechanic I have ever seen for a character who is given infinite power, but is doomed to inevitably die from having that power.

Ar Tonelico is a really interesting system as a whole, but I think the two best parts are the use of MP as a limiter on duration and maximum power of magic, rather than number of uses of magic, and the way it lets the caster choose the power of a spell by just letting it charge and gather strength over time. Also, the way it uses buffs, as short term and very powerful (a basic buff will give characters immunity to electricity, gives them enough bonus electricty damage to double the damage output of normal attacks, and slowly heals them, however it requires constant concentration and the caster's MP will run out only after a few turns). Because MP is constantly drained while casting magic, and regenerates pretty much instantly when not casting magic, it is a very different kind of resource than normal (interesting, a kind of regenerating spell-slot system is combined with this MP system).

I think this is enough before this post gets too big.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Chrono Trigger's Dual Tech/Triple Tech system is very interesting because in that game an individual character's abilities are just building blocks for the much more powerful combination attacks two or more characters can use in tandem. A warrior's special sword attack and a mage's fire spell can be combined into a far more powerful hybrid attack. An Ice spell and a Fire spell cast by two mages can be forced together and trigger an Antipode/Reaction attack that results in a Shadow element spell, something neither mage can use on her own.

Final Fantasy Zero is implementing this idea. Not fully (so many abilities that I would go mad trying to combo them all), but on some level.

Speaking of, let's talk about "Limit Breaks:" special attacks that only become available when you are in a near-death state of being wounded. Or, perhaps in 4e terms, "Bloodied."

Or even the concept of "Materia," which is a sort of item that grants you a power that grows with you, gaing XP as you do, and getting more powerful. The combination of these items is what gives a character their distinct power set, but the powers are interchangable, and any character can use them.

There's good ideas just *waiting* to be harvested from a lot of videogames.

 

[Rechan]

Similarly, in Breath of Fire 4, characters can chain together magical attacks, so that using a spell of a certain elemental after an elemental attack will lead to a much more powerful mixed element attack. The Dragon Gene system of Breath of Fire 3 and the even more amazing D-Dive/D-Counter systems of Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter deserve mention as well. The latter is the only good mechanic I have ever seen for a character who is given infinite power, but is doomed to inevitably die from having that power.

This reminds me of a notion for a magic system.

Instead of pre-existing spells, a PC can make customizable own spells. Magical Effects are just building blocks. Like, let's say you have these blocks:

Damage Increment (1d6/2 levels, let's say)
Ice (Cold damage)
10' Radius burst.
Close range.

That becomes a spell we'll call Blizzard. Later, you can add another block, like:
Medium range.
Slow effect.

Each block varies in degree of power (1d6 damage/level is more potent than 1d6/2 levels, 1d6 damage is better than 1d4 damage). You just add these numbers up to get the "Level" of the spell.

So our Blizzard spell might be 2nd or 3rd level (because of the numbers adding up to equal that level), and when we add Medium Range and Slow Effect, it becomes a 4th level spell.

 

[Rechan]

Speaking of, let's talk about "Limit Breaks:" special attacks that only become available when you are in a near-death state of being wounded. Or, perhaps in 4e terms, "Bloodied."

Honestly, a "Limit Break" could just be a per-day ability. But sure, "Per day (condition: when bloodied)".

Or even the concept of "Materia," which is a sort of item that grants you a power that grows with you, gaing XP as you do, and getting more powerful. The combination of these items is what gives a character their distinct power set, but the powers are interchangable, and any character can use them.

This reminds me of Incarnum.

That's one way to have a few magical items and have them "Level" with PCs. The problem comes with taking items from opponents, and yet being able to swap them around. If you take them from an opponent, shouldn't the Xp that the materia gained still be hanging around in the materia for you to use? If it goes away, then how come you can pass the materia to Fred for him to use?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I will concede the existence of MP-style systems before Dragon Quest, then. Since you didn't mention per-encounter balancing, I think I will take it that you accept videogames may have been an inspiration for the idea.

It's possible that computer games where the first, but I think most non-hitpoint (at least level-based hit point) systems focus a lot more on "per encounter balance".

Shadowrun seems like a good example. If you're smart enough and don't confront enemies way out of your league, the only resource you expend is ammo. You will try to reduce any kind of damage (from attacks) or drain (from spellcasting) to zero. If the damage is not close to zero, you will try to heal it (with First Aid or spells or just some rest).

I am not certain that this ruleset was inspired by video games predating it.

 

[Jinete]

Err... no.

Here's a sample quest card:

QUEST: Fell the big oak in the King's courtyard, and get him a well that would hold water the whole year round.

REWARD: Marry the princess and gain half the kingdom.

This is a summary of what the King promised the characters, it is similar to something a player would write down (probably without the reward part). Maybe having it written on cards instead of in a notebook is better, I really can't tell.

In the middle of the adventure, when the characters find a key with a ruby set in its bow, you can hand them a card, telling them that finding the matching lock is a quest.

This is just *DING* *New quest*. Honestly, if I found a "ruby key" in a treasure somewhere, and came across a "ruby door" three sessions later, I probably wouldn't remember I had the key. Maybe the DM could help me by giving me a card saying "You open the ruby door with the ruby key"?

So if it's a tool for players to remember what they were doing on their last session a month ago then OK. If it's a tool for DM railroading, then IMO it's lame.

 

[Ahglock]

Speaking of, let's talk about "Limit Breaks:" special attacks that only become available when you are in a near-death state of being wounded. Or, perhaps in 4e terms, "Bloodied."

I don't really like the idea of limit breaks being based on bloodied or near death state. Being jacked up should be a penalty not something you shoot for so you can pull off your level 4 limit break and bring down some lasers from space action.

I don't mind limit breaks but they should be based on you doing something well, not getting your butt kicked.