What's wrong with Stealth?

[lukelightning]

A super easy fix would be to make stealth sort of like bluff, something like once per encounter, as part of a move action, you make a bluff check vs. the target's perception. If you beat it, you get CA vs. the target until the end of your turn.

 

[Cyronax]

I agree with this.

I voted however for 'needs more examples.' I see too many loopholes that a certain type of player could grind every combat to a halt with. If there was a Dragon article with "d12 ideas/setups for creative Stealth in combat situations" ... that'd make me very happy.

C.I.D.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Every problem I've ever seen has been someone trying to claim that something which makes stealth really easy to attain is possible.

The entire reason for the stealth rules as is are to prevent characters from easily getting stealthed each round, or from remaining stealthed while they scout out a dungeon alone.

If you're trying to do either of those things, you're most likely going to negatively impact the fun of the game. Easily getting stealthy status each round makes for boring combat, because everyone would do it every round. Hell, even the current rules make deft strike problematic, because hit's hard as a rogue to justify using anything else. Stealth is that good. Solo scouting is an activity that's going to be very boring for 4 of your 5 players. The current system basically lets a rogue scout out the next room and get into position for the start of the encounter if he's willing to risk it, and I think that's good.

The rules are pretty simple. Get completely out of sight before you can hide. Remain partly out of sight to keep hiding. Minor action perception checks have a chance to spot things. Easy.

 

[Rothe_]

Using the system mechanics-wise is easy.

I just find that the problem is that specialized stealth characters have obscenely high stealth skill compared to anything the monsters have on the perception side - disregarding stuff like blindsight and tremorsense.

So, the only characters that use stealth are the specialists and they have something like 90 - 95% success rate in our games usually. A first level halfing rogue has:
+5 dex
+5 training
+2 racial mod

Typical passive perception for monsters is 12-14. You need to roll 3+ to make it in nearly all cases.

I think more monsters should have trained perception. It makes sense even, especially for animals and "monsters" that live in dungeon environments.

 

[Nytmare]

The problem that I have with the complexity isn't that it allows the rogue to hide and deal sneak attack damage, it's the layer of additional rolls and checks against a non defense number every round that crush my soul.

I think that next time I'll try telling the him what all the badguys' perceptions are right at the start of combat and just have him tell me if they see him or not.

 

[Starfox]

It seems like it's too hard to get the "stealth" condition.... considering it is "just" CA (which won't stack with other things that grant CA), I don't see why there is all these hoops you have to jump through in order to get sneaky.

I have to agree. It is a bit too easy to hide in 4E, but the advantages are not all that impressive. I'd prefer a system that makes stealth more of a high cost, big gain option. But considering the spread of skills in 4E, the actual stealth roll becomes almost pointless sometime in the paragon tier.

The problem that I have with the complexity isn't that it allows the rogue to hide and deal sneak attack damage, it's the layer of additional rolls and checks against a non defense number every round that crush my soul.

I think that next time I'll try telling the him what all the badguys' perceptions are right at the start of combat and just have him tell me if they see him or not.

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Jhaelen]

Stealth IS actually pretty easy these days. You generally roll once, it's a minor action to find them. Nothing hard about it.

And not, it's not just CA, it's -5 to be hit IF they know you're there at all. Which they don't necessarily.

The problem lies, as with any rule, when someone tries to insist a loophole exists that doesn't. But then the problem in this scenario isn't the rule, it's the person.

Exactly!

I think the only thing that's wrong with Stealth is that the original rules as written in PHB1 were wrong. It would have been nice if they had got them right the first time.

 

[Dice4Hire]

My group has decided not to even bother with the rules, unless the party is trying to sneak as a whole. One guy trying to hide in a bare room to get extra sneak attack is just too problematic to bother with. The ruels might work ok, we do not know, and have little interest in finding out.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

So, the only characters that use stealth are the specialists and they have something like 90 - 95% success rate in our games usually. A first level halfing rogue has:
+5 dex
+5 training
+2 racial mod

Though it may seem odd, the halfling receives bonuses to acrobatics and thievery, but not stealth. Perhaps you meant tiefling?

Also, I'm not sure that many rogues go with a 20 dex at first level. You can argue that they should, but I have a feeling most players go with a more well-rounded character.

(Edit) Hmmm... I'm having a hard time coming up with reasons not to go with 20 dex. That doesn't prove it's a popular choice, but it might be an indication.

 

[Joshua Randall]

My main beef with Stealth is that you can end up with (IMO) nonsensical situations like the following:

Rogue: I stab this guy, then I move two squares around this corner and roll a Stealth check... 32.
DM:[thinking] Well, even though the monster just got stabbed in the kidney for 148 damage and would certainly have kept his eye on the person who did that, the rogue is now behind a solid wall that completely blocks line of sight. So I guess the monster just forgets the Rogue went around the corner? And next round the Rogue can pop out and have CA?
DM: *sigh* OK, you're Stealthed.