Wheel of Time Discussion - Spoilers(with book spoilers)

[Maxperson]

It's not all that repetitive, across hundreds of thousands of words.

But it isn't really across hundreds of thousands of words. It's across the far fewer words that deal with Nynaeve, so are more readily remembered and repetitive.

 

[Parmandur]

But it isn't really across hundreds of thousands of words. It's across the far fewer words that deal with Nynaeve, so are more readily remembered and repetitive.

Fair point. It never felt repetitive to me, but then it also conveys actual narrative information in context and is not filler.

 

[Parmandur]

Well, that wasn't my impression 25 years ago, but again, it has been awhile. I remember thinking that--at the least--his female characters were more similar to each other than his males. It was a common view, iirc.

It is a frequently stated view, but it never made sense to me: Jordan has quite distinctive female characters. Which becomes even more evident when the POV characters start coming from cultures beyond the Two Rivers (Aviendha on a boat might be one of the finest pieces of third person limited narration I've ever read, in a literary sense).

What do you mean by "impact?" Impact on what? Fantasy literature? Culture? World events? Cosmic history?

I can't speak for @doctorbadwolf , but for myself: all of the above. Martin has some talent as a wordsmith and has had an hour of popularity, but his books are ultimately meaningless (very literally, the point is to negate the concept of meaning thematically).

Just in cultural terms, Wheel of Time is necessarily more influential, as part of it's influence is Martin writing his books.

 

[Mercurius]

It is a frequently stated view, but it never made sense to me: Jordan has quite distinctive female characters. Which becomes even more evident when the POV characters start coming from cultures beyond the Two Rivers (Aviendha on a boat might be one of the finest pieces of third person limited narration I've ever read, in a literary sense).

I can't speak for @doctorbadwolf , but for myself: all of the above. Martin has some talent as a wordsmith and has had an hour of popularity, but his books are ultimately meaningless (very literally, the point is to negate the concept of meaning thematically).

Just in cultural terms, Wheel of Time is necessarily more influential, as part of it's influence is Martin writing his books.

I think that is debatable. Mind you, I say this as someone who preferred Wheel of Time to Game of Thrones, for a variety of reasons. But I think in terms of cultural impact, at least as of right now, GoT--via the tv series--inhabited a space in the public mind that WoT has not (yet) touched.

Now within fantasy literature is a different matter, although I still think isn't a clear-cut case.

As for your last sentence, I think that is a bit dubious, because then we can say that Tolkien trumps all, or even, Shakespeare or Homer or Gilgamesh trumps all. I think it is more meaningful to consider every book or story or author as a starting point of a "sphere of influence," and then specify a context.

So I think within the context of fantasy literature, it is debatable. Within the context of Western culture, GoT has been more impactful (so far).

In terms of cosmic history, neither is more or less impactful unless, of course, WoT inspires some mad scientist to create balefire, and then we're in trouble.

 

[Parmandur]

I think that is debatable. Mind you, I say this as someone who preferred Wheel of Time to Game of Thrones, for a variety of reasons. But I think in terms of cultural impact, at least as of right now, GoT--via the tv series--inhabited a space in the public mind that WoT has not (yet) touched.

Now within fantasy literature is a different matter, although I still think isn't a clear-cut case.

As for your last sentence, I think that is a bit dubious, because then we can say that Tolkien trumps all, or even, Shakespeare or Homer or Gilgamesh trumps all. I think it is more meaningful to consider every book or story or author as a starting point of a "sphere of influence," and then specify a context.

So I think within the context of fantasy literature, it is debatable. Within the context of Western culture, GoT has been more impactful (so far).

In terms of cosmic history, neither is more or less impactful unless, of course, WoT inspires some mad scientist to create balefire, and then we're in trouble.

More than Tolkien even, the success of the Wheel of Time in the early 90's(and Memory, Sorrow, & Thorn but that's another story altogether) is what led to Game of Thrones being a going publishing concern: Martin saw what was being done in that space, and left his Hollywood gig to throw his hat in yhst ring.

And even aside from GoT, a lot of pop culture from the past 30 years has a clear trace of Wheel of Time DNA present (Avatar: The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra being prime examples).

 

[Zaukrie]

Post what you want, but I wonder what a thread about the TV show would read like.....

 

[Demetrios1453]

Post what you want, but I wonder what a thread about the TV show would read like.....

How about the promo for Episode 4:

 

[Parmandur]

Post what you want, but I wonder what a thread about the TV show would read like.....

The show, the books...all form but parts of one Pattern.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

More than Tolkien even, the success of the Wheel of Time in the early 90's(and Memory, Sorrow, & Thorn but that's another story altogether) is what led to Game of Thrones being a going publishing concern: Martin saw what was being done in that space, and left his Hollywood gig to throw his hat in yhst ring.

And even aside from GoT, a lot of pop culture from the past 30 years has a clear trace of Wheel of Time DNA present (Avatar: The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra being prime examples).

Also, the impact of GoT seems to have been quite brief and shallow. Other than people obnoxiously parroting the phrasing of “bend the knee”, and some actors having thier careers launched, I can’t think of any impact the show has had that lasted beyond the immediate period after the airing of the finale.

I guess the books probably influenced a few writers, but I can’t recall anyone I’ve read citing Martin as an important influence.

To be fair, I only read the first book, and couldn’t bring myself to bother with the rest of the series.

 

[Parmandur]

Also, the impact of GoT seems to have been quite brief and shallow. Other than people obnoxiously parroting the phrasing of “bend the knee”, and some actors having thier careers launched, I can’t think of any impact the show has had that lasted beyond the immediate period after the airing of the finale.

I guess the books probably influenced a few writers, but I can’t recall anyone I’ve read citing Martin as an important influence.

To be fair, I only read the first book, and couldn’t bring myself to bother with the rest of the series.

I read the first four, largely because of the Robert Jordan blurb on the first book: waiting for the fourth was excruciating, five years between books. That's bigger than any WoT publishing gap, and that was painful at the time, too. Then he didn't publish the next for six years, in which time I got over the style and moved on, while at the same time the show made the stories hip for 15 minutes (my only "I was into it before it was cool" moment in my entire life). My wife, when she tried them years later, hated the first book so much ("what the hell is this sick misogynistic and racist crap??") that she insisted that we sell them. We never sell books. She liked Martin's prose stylings, but hated the content and that he used his powers for evil rather than good.

The show really didn't seem to stick the landing, which from what I've read (because I am not spoiler averse) is in the DNA of the stories from the beginning, people just didn't pick up what Martin was laying down.

Wheel of Time, the books, stuck the landing with a flourish. We'll see about the show: at least they have the advantage of being able to map the entire story in detail from the word Go, unlike the GoT shennanigans.