When a man plays a woman

[Mallus]

I'm really not sure you understand all that much about "race and ethnicity" but I'm too exhausted to get into it.

I understand something about race and ethnicity. Because I'm a non-white US citizen whose been alive for 47 years. At the very least, I understand the truth of my lived experiences.

I don't think cultural appropriation is a useful idea. Not when used informally, anyway, in places like this. It's a pejorative label for cultural exchange, which is inevitable and not in itself a bad thing. I think this because I'm the product of cultural assimilation. For the record, I have 4 distinct ethnic heritages, plus the cultural heritage that reflects the region I was raised in (and that heritage is a mix of immigrant minorities). I'm also in an interracial marriage. I kinda think about 'race and ethnicity' a lot.

So if you'd like to talk about cultural assimilation with a minority gamer who holds a different opinion of it, I'm game. Unless the topic is verboten here, in which case I'll drop it. I'm perfectly happy to keep it civil - but mind, while I welcome other people's opinions and experiences, I don't like being spoke for.

 

[Mallus]

Now, back to men playing women characters...

One thing I notices in these discussions is the common refrain of "wanting to do it right" and "wanting to do a female character justice". Outside of not wanting to play a bundle of sexist cliches, I'm not too concerned about the accuracy of the portrayal, or if they're believable. That's not a standard I hold my male PCs to. They're just sketches of people operating in a sketch of a world for the amusement of the people playing a game. I'm not trying to hit upon some great truth. I'm not trying for an Oscar. While I'm constantly surprised and delighted by the flashes of shockingly good characterization and quality insight that occur even in the silliest of my campaigns, we don't find ourselves fretting about 'right'. The game is a space for experimentation and often directionless play inside each other's heads.

I don't always manage 'respect' - frankly a lot of my characters, PC and NPC, aren't respectable people - but do try to create & play them without judgment. Or maybe with a single judgment: they're just people, for good or ill.

 

[Celebrim]

I don't think cultural appropriation is a useful idea. Not when used informally, anyway, in places like this. It's a pejorative label for cultural exchange, which is inevitable and not in itself a bad thing. I think this because I'm the product of cultural assimilation.

When I say that "cultural appropriation is not a thing", what I don't mean is that some of the problems that get stuffed under the umbrella tag of "cultural appropriation" aren't problems. I mean that "cultural appropriation" as a tag is inherently not useful, inherently poorly communicates about those problems, inherently creates misconceptions, unfortunately lumps together things which would be better with their own tags, and has fundamental philosophical roots in some really dark places. It's not by accident that I choose to attack the notion of "authenticity", and I think people that traced back where that came from would be really surprised. I say it's not a thing, not to dismiss anyone's real problems and experiences, but to dismiss it as a useful description and mental framework for what those problems actually are. In other words, I dislike it in large part because I think it is sloppy thinking, and I link to the video that I link to because its someone who isn't white (and therefore, for better or worse has the privilege of speaking with moral authority on this topic) that eloquently attacks the sloppy thinking involved in "cultural appropriation", and the racist ideology at the heart of it, while not dismissing the often real problems that get labeled as "cultural appropriation".

One of the things I always look for in an ideology, is if that condemns something as wrong, it gives a functional description of how a person in the wrong can amend their behavior. And I really think one of the big problems with "cultural appropriation" as a description, is it isn't coherently proscriptive. Any attempt to describe what someone guilty of the crime should do, or how one should avoid the crime, invariably runs into wishy-washy thinking, self-contradiction, and most of all appointment of a preferred priesthood who can speak "authentically" on the particular subject. As I've just tried to show, defining "authenticity" in these matters is probably impossible, and is usually a tautology. But even worse "authenticity" in a racial context proves to be racist, as it turns out that whether you are authentic or not ends up being determined mostly by whether you agree and submit, and if you have some opinion about race or whatever that doesn't conform with the program, then you - as you've just experienced - get dismissed. I've seen too many cases of things like people who supposedly have good intentions, promoting "cultural appropriation" as "social justice", claim that the only "authentic" black experience is being a criminal, and dismissing as inauthentic (in far more racist language than that) someone whose skin is dark who has any other experience. When you do that to people who I count as friends, or count as people I admire and respect, I get a bit defensive about it, which may unfortunately spill out into aggressive rhetorical counter-punching.

Anyway, I think there seems to be consensus that men can play women (and women can play men). It might be interesting if there was any particular insight beyond the obvious on how to do that well, especially if you feel it isn't usually done well.

 

[innerdude]

but the fact is I see 100x amount the focus from self described Free Speech advocates focusing on the right to be hateful/insensitive.

It's only tangentially related to the OP, but I couldn't let this slide by without commenting . . . .

The very notion of free speech must, by definition, include provisions to protect hateful/insensitive expressions or it is no longer valid.

Taken to its barest level, "cultural appropriation" is based on the idea that "We simply cannot allow people to do Action X or say Speech Y because it's offensive! It's too dangerous and harmful to those who might experience it!"

And in some highly narrow, circumscribed cases, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled this is true. Some forms of speech are, in fact, too dangerous and harmful to be protected under the First Amendment. But the core conception of "cultural appropriation" falls solidly outside the use cases defined by SCOTUS legal precedent. Telling someone, "You can't do or say that because it's hurtful and insensitive to some people's feelings, and I'm going to make you stop!" is by definition an espousal of censorship. Period.

Don't get me wrong---I am not saying that the pain suffered by those subject to hateful and insensitive speech is not genuine or real. But legally, the U.S. Supreme Court has evaluated the balance of free speech against the pain of those who might suffer at the hands of hateful and insensitive speech, and weighed in favor of free speech. If people get up in arms about "cultural appropriation" infringing on their right to be hateful and insensitive, that's because it does. While we might wish that infinitely fewer people availed themselves of their right to engage in hateful and insensitive speech, it doesn't change the fact that it's their right.

Bringing it back to the OP: we might equally wish that men playing female PCs would not avail themselves of their right to roleplay lesbian stripper ninja characters. Doesn't change the fact that it's still their right to do so* (assuming their group consents).





*For the record, I generally have no desire to be hateful or insensitive, nor play lesbian ninja stripper PCs.

 

[Sunseeker]

Now, back to men playing women characters...

One thing I notices in these discussions is the common refrain of "wanting to do it right" and "wanting to do a female character justice". Outside of not wanting to play a bundle of sexist cliches, I'm not too concerned about the accuracy of the portrayal, or if they're believable. That's not a standard I hold my male PCs to. They're just sketches of people operating in a sketch of a world for the amusement of the people playing a game. I'm not trying to hit upon some great truth. I'm not trying for an Oscar. While I'm constantly surprised and delighted by the flashes of shockingly good characterization and quality insight that occur even in the silliest of my campaigns, we don't find ourselves fretting about 'right'. The game is a space for experimentation and often directionless play inside each other's heads.

I don't always manage 'respect' - frankly a lot of my characters, PC and NPC, aren't respectable people - but do try to create & play them without judgment. Or maybe with a single judgment: they're just people, for good or ill.

Well, noone really asks about how men go about playing men (or women women). We just assume that since you are a man you must know how to be any man. That doesn't seem right. Being a human male IRL may or may not give me insight into how to play a male, human or otherwise, in the game world. It assumes a lot about cultural norms in the game and to be honest, if you did ask me, you'd get the same answer, because my goal is always the same. Male, female, elf, dwarf, naked mole rat: to do the character I want to play justice.

But as you say, your games often have directionless play. I don't enjoy those games. I like a game where I can achieve good characterization and good direction.

 

[zymurgy65]

Oddly enough, I nearly always play female characters. I think it goes back to my time with a Sega Mega-Drive - the female characters were more about speed, agility and stealth rather than brute strength (e.g. Blaze in Streets of Rage, and Shadow in Eternal Champions), which suited my playing style. That (and years of watching Xena: Warrior Princess!) means I favour female over male characters.

Also, playing another gender is more of a challenge. In our Firefly campaign, I play Kaylee. As a 50-something guy with depression and OCD, I find playing a perky, optimistic 20-year-old quite therapeutic, as well as being great fun!

Likewise, in a Descent: Journeys in the Dark campaign in 2014, I played the wildlander Jain Fairwood. I had so much fun in that role that when 5th Ed. D&D came out, I re-created her as a ranger. Interestingly, all four members of our recently reformed party are now female, although I'm the only male player.

 

[Gentlegamer]

By the way, when you play a woman, be sure to roll the random check to see if your character is menstruating.

 

[Roseweave]

Well, noone really asks about how men go about playing men (or women women). We just assume that since you are a man you must know how to be any man. That doesn't seem right. Being a human male IRL may or may not give me insight into how to play a male, human or otherwise, in the game world. It assumes a lot about cultural norms in the game and to be honest, if you did ask me, you'd get the same answer, because my goal is always the same. Male, female, elf, dwarf, naked mole rat: to do the character I want to play justice.

But as you say, your games often have directionless play. I don't enjoy those games. I like a game where I can achieve good characterization and good direction.

It's hard to explain but I know that being trans at least there's certain things only trans people will ever really get. That's not to say that great trans characters can't be and haven't been written by cis people, but there'll always be a layer of abstraction there so when you're dealing with something like a PC that's a bit more intimate than a character in a book it can be difficult. OOI the character I'm playing is "non-white" and something of a refugee and will be treated like a foreigner in the next campaign, which isn't something I've exactly experienced(I am of "mixed heritage" technically, being of Catholic & Protestant origin though, which was a bit more of a thing in the 90s).

 

[Sunseeker]

It's hard to explain but I know that being trans at least there's certain things only trans people will ever really get. That's not to say that great trans characters can't be and haven't been written by cis people, but there'll always be a layer of abstraction there so when you're dealing with something like a PC that's a bit more intimate than a character in a book it can be difficult. OOI the character I'm playing is "non-white" and something of a refugee and will be treated like a foreigner in the next campaign, which isn't something I've exactly experienced(I am of "mixed heritage" technically, being of Catholic & Protestant origin though, which was a bit more of a thing in the 90s).

Sure, and personally I probably wouldn't play a trans person, I don't know very many (I know like, 3), and I'm not real well-learned on it, I would also question if it was something that would add to the game for me. I don't usually play people of color (being quite possibly the whitest person I know) for largely the same reason: I don't know it well enough to make it a meaningful addition to the game.

Oh, and to add: everyone fits some stereotypes, so while I try to avoid completely stereotypical behaviour I try to throw in a couple tics here and there. Take one of your table players: she's a painter/exterior repair person, she owns her own painting/siding biz, often shows up in paint-stained t-shirts and jeans but sometimes she shows up in a corset and heels. Why? Because she likes to.

 

[MechaPilot]

By the way, when you play a woman, be sure to roll the random check to see if your character is menstruating.

Do you roll periodically to see if your character is flatulent or needs to defecate or urinate? Rolling for simple bodily functions sounds like a level of minutia tracking that I wouldn't care for either as a DM or a player (I already don't track my players' characters' ammunition usage). If you don't roll for calls of nature, then why would you roll for menstruation?

Also, rolling for menstruation makes no sense. If one were going to track it, then just going with an "X number of days between cycles" is far more realistic with no real rise in complexity over using a die roll (it would literally be just as easy as checking off boxes when tracking ammunition).