D&D 5E When Did 5E Peak Quality Wise?

[mamba]

I would not stake my business on that. Lawyers find a way.

you do you, but the CC has survived some challenges, it is not unproven (and vulnerable) like the OGL was.

There is risk in anything in life, stick with the CC 5e or doing something that relies on neither but as a consequence has a much smaller potential customer base.

Depending on what you want to do, either one is fine, but if you want to write a supplement / adventure to an existing TTRPG and your only considerations are risk (of having the rug pulled from under you by the publisher of the TTRPG) and size of the potential market, then not going for a 5e supplement / adventure is a bad business decision

 

[Burnside]

I've been trying to determine whether I think there really has been a definitive "peak" for 5E and I don't think there really has been.

Imo there have been excellent AND weak official offerings throughout the run from the very first year. For instance, if you believe there has been a recent decline in hardcover adventure books in recent years, you may be viewing stuff like Horde of the Dragon Queen, Princes of the Apocalypse, and Out of the Abyss through rose colored glasses.

If you want try to do it by year:

2014
Starter Set - excellent
PHB - excellent
Horde of the Dragon Queen - okay
Monster Manual - excellent
Rise of Tiamat - okay
Dungeon Master's Guide - okay

2015
Princes of the Apocalypse - kinda bad
Out of the Abyss - mixed bag, but overall I'd say bad adventure with some great ideas and set pieces
Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide - okay

2016
Curse of Strahd - excellent
Storm King's Thunder - very bad
Volo's Guide to Monsters - excellent

2017
Tales from the Yawning Portal - okay
Tomb of Annihilation - excellent
Xanathar's Guide to Everything - excellent

2018
Mordenkainen's Tomb of Foes - okay
Waterdeep: Dragon Heist - terrible
Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage - good
Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica - good

2019
Essentials Kit - good
Ghosts of Saltmarsh - good
Acquisitions Inc - good
Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus - kinda bad
Eberron: Rising from the Last War - good

2020
Explorer's Guide to Wildemount - good
Mythic Odysseys of Theros - good
Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden - excellent
Tasha's Cauldron of Everything - very good

2021
Van Richten's Guide to Raveloft - good
Candlekeep Mysteries - okay to good
The Wild Beyond the Witchlight - good
Fizban's Treasury of Dragons - bad
Strixhaven: A Curriculum of Chaos - very bad

2022
Critical Role: Call of the Netherdeep - kinda bad
Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse - okay to good
Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel - very good
Spelljammer: Adventures in Space - mixed bag, but overall I'd say more good than bad with clear flaws
Starter Set: Dragons of Stormwreck Isle - good
Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen - okay

2023
Keys from the Golden Vault - very good

I'm hard pressed to discern a clear "peak" there.

2014 was great but with the core books all in there it has advantages. It has arguably the best Starter Set in the history of D&D pulling a lot of weight, and 2/3 core books are excellent. Strong case here.

2015 has to be viewed in retrospect as an inarguable down year which makes 2014 look even more like a peak.

2016 has imo the best 5E adventure in Curse of Strahd and also the really strong Volo's, but if you have only 3 books released in a year and one of them is the terrible Storm King's Thunder is that really a "peak" year?

2017 feels like the peak for me personally because it's the year that I returned to the game after a 20+ year absence. It also happens to have 2 excellent books and no bad ones. But Tomb of Annihilation, while excellent, isn't the "best" adventure book and Xanathar's, also excellent, isn't the "best" sourcebook either.

After 2017, the release schedule becomes increasingly aggressive by year. So yes, you start getting MORE misses, but not proportionately more really. Waterdeep: Dragon Heist in 2018 I really thought was shockingly bad, and it made me worried about the quality control situation at WotC in a way that I hadn't been previously in this era. So you could argue that it "peaked" before that release? But it's not like it was all downhill from that point at all.

2020 imo is an underrated year for 5E books. It helps that I personally love the admittedly divisive Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden. Tasha's introduced some much-needed reform to races and classes, along with a couple of badly unbalanced subclasses and pretty bad puzzles. Folks who ignore setting books, or non-FR setting books, missed two really, really good ones in Wildemount and Theros.

There is a rough patch starting in mid-2021 (Fizban's) through early 2022 (Call of the Netherdeep) that I can believe turned off some folks and made them think the best of the edition was behind us. But honestly I think there has been some strong stuff since then, and I think Keys of the Golden Vault is the best adventure product in a few years.

 

[ECMO3]

It's the temp hp each round that I found game-breaking, making it virtually impossible for enemies to take any party members down to zero hp. If the enemies focus-fired on the cleric they simply healed themselves whilst the wizard ripped them to shreads. The long range darkvision is situationally powerful, but not overly so on it's own, and clerics get plenty of good core spells so domain spells don't matter. Also, flying.

See we have not had a problem with that. I have only had 4 PCs die (as in actually dead and not revived) in a game in the last 2 years. One of those 4 was inside a Twilight Sanctuary when he kicked the bucket and a TS would not have saved the other three. At high levels monsters blow through those temp hps if they are damaging monsters and if they are not, then it is not that relevant. I find the ending a charm/frightened to actually be more powerful at higher level, although that is situational.

For us the biggest reason TS is not OP is the opportunity cost to cast. Starting at level 5 plus you are giving up an action that can be used on a more powerful spell to cast it. As you go higher in level this gets even more pronounced. As a result players are usually not using it in the tough fights unless someone is frightened/charmed. They are using it against weaker foes or when they are out of good spells. At 13th level if you are playing twilight you are usually using the first 2 CDs a day on Harness Divine Power .... unless you run into some undead or like I said frightening/charming enemies.

But every game is different.

I will say as someone who plays Fey Wanderer Ranger PCs a lot, the idea of an enemy Twilight Cleric would be pretty "terrifying" since he could end a frightened without a successful save.

 

[ECMO3]

Tasha's in 2020 fixed so many of the rough edges of the original PHB: barbarian, druid, fighter, rogue, and especially ranger; plus the artificer. That's the peak for me.
I loved the race options in MotM, but its uncertain relationship with what went before means it is post-peak.

I think Ranger went from being the weakest d10/12 class to being the most powerful d10/12 class (assuming a good subclass).

I think Ranger now outruns a Fighter and Barbarian by a mile and with smart selections is gernally more powerful than a single-class Paladin too. The only thing that complicates this assessment is the Paladin Aura which can be game breaking or can be minimally beneficial depending on the party makeup, adventure design and PC tactics. In the right party and adventure a Paladin is the best "martial" but in most cases I would put Tasha's Ranger on top of a Paladin.

 

[Stormonu]

I think Ranger went from being the weakest d10/12 class to being the most powerful d10/12 class (assuming a good subclass).

I think Ranger now outruns a Fighter and Barbarian by a mile and with smart selections is gernally more powerful than a single-class Paladin too. The only thing that complicates this assessment is the Paladin Aura which can be game breaking or can be minimally beneficial depending on the party makeup, adventure design and PC tactics. In the right party and adventure a Paladin is the best "martial" but in most cases I would put Tasha's Ranger on top of a Paladin.

You'd have to build me a Tasha's Ranger and take me through a few rounds of combat to believe that (about 5th-8th level). Even with the changes, I haven't seen someone utilize a Ranger than can hold a candle to any of the other classes.

 

[Zardnaar]

You'd have to build me a Tasha's Ranger and take me through a few rounds of combat to believe that (about 5th-8th level). Even with the changes, I haven't seen someone utilize a Ranger than can hold a candle to any of the other classes.

I've seen good hunter and the gloomstalker but only in archer type roles.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

See, there's your mistake. You think that I think that 5e is going up or down. I don't. 5e hasn't really changed significantly in quality for the entire run. The books are just as good or bad quality wise today as they were in 2014. Not a huge change. Certainly not to the degree that people are claiming here.

A straight line peaked when it started.

 

[jerryrice4949]

While I can't speak for everyone of course, it does seem that companies that would otherwise do 3pp work are instead doing their own thing. Darrington, Kobold, EN, Matt Collville, and others are all doing their own stand alone games. Mage Hand Press has come out on their Patreon against One D&D as well. The new edition may or may not be successful, but WotC D&D will almost certainly have less support from the community.

Let’s have this discussion in 3 years. Several of those are 5e/One D&D adjacent and will likely be used with official 5E/One D&D products.

Additionally, as these are all big name players in the industry I expect they will do very well initially but I wouldn’t bet subsequent offerings from of all them continue to draw tons of support. Some will take off and some will fade away. What happens if Tales of the Valiant finds over time their support is slipping while One D&D continues to grow. You can almost bet KP would be back as a direct supporter. So like I said, let’s have this conversation in 2026.

 

[Zardnaar]

I've been trying to determine whether I think there really has been a definitive "peak" for 5E and I don't think there really has been.

Imo there have been excellent AND weak official offerings throughout the run from the very first year. For instance, if you believe there has been a recent decline in hardcover adventure books in recent years, you may be viewing stuff like Horde of the Dragon Queen, Princes of the Apocalypse, and Out of the Abyss through rose colored glasses.

If you want try to do it by year:

2014
Starter Set - excellent
PHB - excellent
Horde of the Dragon Queen - okay
Monster Manual - excellent
Rise of Tiamat - okay
Dungeon Master's Guide - okay

2015
Princes of the Apocalypse - kinda bad
Out of the Abyss - mixed bag, but overall I'd say bad adventure with some great ideas and set pieces
Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide - okay

2016
Curse of Strahd - excellent
Storm King's Thunder - very bad
Volo's Guide to Monsters - excellent

2017
Tales from the Yawning Portal - okay
Tomb of Annihilation - excellent
Xanathar's Guide to Everything - excellent

2018
Mordenkainen's Tomb of Foes - okay
Waterdeep: Dragon Heist - terrible
Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage - good
Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica - good

2019
Essentials Kit - good
Ghosts of Saltmarsh - good
Acquisitions Inc - good
Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus - kinda bad
Eberron: Rising from the Last War - good

2020
Explorer's Guide to Wildemount - good
Mythic Odysseys of Theros - good
Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden - excellent
Tasha's Cauldron of Everything - very good

2021
Van Richten's Guide to Raveloft - good
Candlekeep Mysteries - okay to good
The Wild Beyond the Witchlight - good
Fizban's Treasury of Dragons - bad
Strixhaven: A Curriculum of Chaos - very bad

2022
Critical Role: Call of the Netherdeep - kinda bad
Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse - okay to good
Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel - very good
Spelljammer: Adventures in Space - mixed bag, but overall I'd say more good than bad with clear flaws
Starter Set: Dragons of Stormwreck Isle - good
Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen - okay

2023
Keys from the Golden Vault - very good

I'm hard pressed to discern a clear "peak" there.

2014 was great but with the core books all in there it has advantages. It has arguably the best Starter Set in the history of D&D pulling a lot of weight, and 2/3 core books are excellent. Strong case here.

2015 has to be viewed in retrospect as an inarguable down year which makes 2014 look even more like a peak.

2016 has imo the best 5E adventure in Curse of Strahd and also the really strong Volo's, but if you have only 3 books released in a year and one of them is the terrible Storm King's Thunder is that really a "peak" year?

2017 feels like the peak for me personally because it's the year that I returned to the game after a 20+ year absence. It also happens to have 2 excellent books and no bad ones. But Tomb of Annihilation, while excellent, isn't the "best" adventure book and Xanathar's, also excellent, isn't the "best" sourcebook either.

After 2017, the release schedule becomes increasingly aggressive by year. So yes, you start getting MORE misses, but not proportionately more really. Waterdeep: Dragon Heist in 2018 I really thought was shockingly bad, and it made me worried about the quality control situation at WotC in a way that I hadn't been previously in this era. So you could argue that it "peaked" before that release? But it's not like it was all downhill from that point at all.

2020 imo is an underrated year for 5E books. It helps that I personally love the admittedly divisive Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden. Tasha's introduced some much-needed reform to races and classes, along with a couple of badly unbalanced subclasses and pretty bad puzzles. Folks who ignore setting books, or non-FR setting books, missed two really, really good ones in Wildemount and Theros.

There is a rough patch starting in mid-2021 (Fizban's) through early 2022 (Call of the Netherdeep) that I can believe turned off some folks and made them think the best of the edition was behind us. But honestly I think there has been some strong stuff since then, and I think Keys of the Golden Vault is the best adventure product in a few years.

Not vad lust but only half of 2020 is good for me and Tashas is mixed bag so that was the star of the decline.

3 "duds" out of 13 is why I put 2017-19 as peak. That's a pretty good hit ratio.

 

[mamba]

A straight line peaked when it started.

not really, it never peaks, since it never drops