When did WotC D&D "Jump the Shark"?

[Dice4Hire]

For me, PHB3 marked the last book I bought from WoTC sight unseen. I have purchased a fair amount of material since, but not all, and every quarter of the release schedule I purchase less. Honestly, the new player options are so increasingly niche in their appeal I feel the price/performance ratio is seriously lacking (insert disclaimer about opinion, etc...).

All core was a terrible idea, I agree.

As for books, I, too, am very leery of new ones, and I hate to be.

i would love to be looking forward to an elemental-themed (for example) PHBIV in a month or two.

I would buy it in a heartbeat.

But WOTC is printing all niche stuff.

HOS is too niche. Yes, it has some good stuff, but going for the evil side of characters and being essentials drove me off. The rest of the year is pretty niche also. Like Neverwinter. It is FR, and might be quite good, but making it neverwinter has a chance of driving off customers (though it might attract the FR people, too.

I jsut htink we need to go back for mroe genral appeal.

 

[TheUltramark]

Apropos of nothing, I just want the Monster Builder to work, the Compendium to be updated and I will forget everything else. One of the things I have learnt from 12 years in Singapore is how to lower my expectations so as to avoid disappointment.

Again, I apologize for not being up to speed with the rest of this, but what is a "monster builder". Also, would mm1,2&3 on pdf be considered a compendium?

 

[Derulbaskul]

Again, I apologize for not being up to speed with the rest of this, but what is a "monster builder". Also, would mm1,2&3 on pdf be considered a compendium?

The Monster Builder exists in two forms:

- There was an offline version that worked very well for about a year until a patch released at the time of MMIII crippled it somewhat. It's still better than the online piece of junk. It is called Adventure Tools Classic on the WotC website.
- There is now an online version that doesn't let you build monsters or do much else. Utter rubbish.

Both can be found on this page: Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Tool (D&D Adventure Tools)

The Compendium rocks. It's the only part of DDi that doesn't simply blow chunks. It basically compiles everything (feats, powers, classes, monsters) for 4E. It can be found here: Dungeons & Dragons Compendium

You can search on the Compendium without a subscription but you cannot see the full results.

As much as I think WotC has completely stuffed up almost everything related to DDi, I will say the Compendium is simply outstanding.

 

[Eridanis]

Moved to RPG Industry forum.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Not to be snarky (well too snarky), the ramp was built and shark penned with the decision to make everything core that is published in DDI and supplements. The boat wasn't fired up until PHB3 and the racial books for Dragonborn and Tieflings.

For me, PHB3 marked the last book I bought from WoTC sight unseen. I have purchased a fair amount of material since, but not all, and every quarter of the release schedule I purchase less. Honestly, the new player options are so increasingly niche in their appeal I feel the price/performance ratio is seriously lacking (insert disclaimer about opinion, etc...).

It is just kind of inevitable. After you put out all the 927 options for each core class and every which possible way of combining them all together, and every race anyone has ever heard of (plus a few), then you're kinda pretty much left with niche...

4e just burned through all the permutations FAST. I think they felt that with OGL 3.x still lurching around out there unkillable they had to whip 4e right up to a comparable level of completeness very quickly. Thus in 3 years flat they've practically covered every mainstream option that any reasonable player will ever need.

Could they have an elemental power source? Yeah, but what actually would it do that is really genuinely new? What character from myth, legend, or literature can't you make already that it would provide you with the ability to do. Are some hair splittingly minor variations of existing mechanics really enough to make something like that unique?

Honestly I think the main problem with 4e is they simply went too fast. Less is more, but we only got MORE MORE MORE. Of course it is slowing down now, how could it NOT??!!

 

[BryonD]

Agreeing with shark anologies aside....

WotC is just a bit schizophrenic right now. That's all.

They had a great plan to massively increase their fan base. It did not work. Their fan base got smaller.

The best thing they can do right now is dance with the one the brung'em and work with the strengths they have.

The second worst thing they can do right now is reverse course and put trying to get lost fans back in front of focusing on the the desires of the 4E fan base.

The worst thing they can do right now is keep second guessing themselves and swinging back and forth.

They are doing the latter.

 

[Gryph]

It is just kind of inevitable. After you put out all the 927 options for each core class and every which possible way of combining them all together, and every race anyone has ever heard of (plus a few), then you're kinda pretty much left with niche...

4e just burned through all the permutations FAST. I think they felt that with OGL 3.x still lurching around out there unkillable they had to whip 4e right up to a comparable level of completeness very quickly. Thus in 3 years flat they've practically covered every mainstream option that any reasonable player will ever need.

Could they have an elemental power source? Yeah, but what actually would it do that is really genuinely new? What character from myth, legend, or literature can't you make already that it would provide you with the ability to do. Are some hair splittingly minor variations of existing mechanics really enough to make something like that unique?

Honestly I think the main problem with 4e is they simply went too fast. Less is more, but we only got MORE MORE MORE. Of course it is slowing down now, how could it NOT??!!

I agree with all of this. There were a couple of early publishing/layout decisions that I think forced them into the hurried early pace. Splitting out some of the iconic races/classes/monsters from the first three books. I'm looking at you Gnome/Bards/Giants.

I also think WoTC's aversion to setting support and adventures contributed. Two books and a smallish adventure for each setting is very sparse. I think some additional gazeteer style soft-backs and more adventures would have sold well enough to be mildly profitable, kept interest high and allowed for some space between the core hardbacks.

I don't think it is too late to add to the print schedule with some of the types of materials they skipped with this edition. I think there are still a lot of FR, Eberron and Dark Sun fans out there.

 

[Mark CMG]

From my point of view, as a D&D player since 1981, D&D jumped the shark when it became clear 4e was going to be so much of a transformation. It's like when Sam had sex with Diane on Cheers. A central dynamic of the show changed - as had several central dynamics of the game in 4e. And in both cases, the change was made to increase the customer base - ratings for Cheers, players for D&D. But for customers/viewers like me, too much is lost and the game/show enters a decline.

Does that mean Essentials = Kirstie Alley/Rules Bloat?

 

[billd91]

Does that mean Essentials = Kirstie Alley/Rules Bloat?

Maybe in the sense that Essentials is an attempt to produce a 4e more palatable to previous edition fans - as Kirstie Alley's character Rebecca brought in another chance for there to be an unconsummated sexual tension dynamic between Sam and another woman.

But out of respect for the once slim and sexy new actress who landed an intimidating part playing in a Star Trek movie (by the far the best of them), I'm going to consider any digs at her weight like the bloat comment to be pretty tasteless.

 

[delericho]

Is there any denying that WotC D&D is in shambles, or borderline shambles?

Yep. There seems to be plenty of denying it.

I'm not even sure I agree with it myself - sure, things are clearly not quite right over there, but that may be nothing more than the effect of WotC changing direction while we watch, rather than an actual crisis.

But I'm wondering is this: at what point did things really begin to go down hill?

In my opinion, WotC (and D&D) has been on a downhill slope since 2006. Now, 2006 was an outstanding year - lots of really good product. But since then... not so good.

For me, the watershed product was "Scourge of the Howling Horde", which was a truly woeful 3.5e module. Fortunately, WotC seem to have avoided producing anything quite so bad since then, at least in print. Although a Monster Builder that doesn't actually build monsters, but only levels them up (incorrectly) would seem to match it quite handily...

So what do you think? When did WotC D&D jump the shark? Has it jumped the shark at all, in your view?

Maybe, maybe not. We'll probably know either way by the end of the year.