D&D 5E When do you get advantage from attacking while unseen?

Springheel

First Post
According to the PH: "When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it."

"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you."

What about out of combat?

Situation 1: A rogue makes a successful stealth check and sneaks up behind a bored guard. I assume they are considered "unseen" and attack with advantage (and the guard is surprised).

Situation 2: A character in a busy crowd walks up behind a bored guard and attacks (no stealth check). Is he considered unseen?

Situation 3: A Warlock with Mask of Many Faces makes himself look like a friendly NPC, walks up to a bored guard, passes behind him, and then attacks the guard from behind. Is the Warlock unseen?


Obviously it's a DM call, but I'm curious how people here would rule.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


1) Stealth check vs guards passive perception to be unseen. (Assuming the PC can approach from the guards blind spot. It's not combat, so I don't assume the guard is continually looking around, but there is a direction or directions they will be focused on.)

2) Without making an attempt at stealth, he's only as unseen as the environment+distractions allow him to be. The DM sets a Perception DC based on his assessment of the situation and if it is higher than the guards passive perception the character is unseen.

3) I'd use a Deception check opposed by the guards Insight (or possibly Investigate/Perception if the guard is on high alert and actively looking for suspicious people). If he successfully deceives the guard he walks past without being flagged as suspicious. Once past, it's a stealth check (or arbitrary DC set by the DM if the PC doesn't attempt stealth) vs. guards passive perception to notice the the PC as he attacks. (If I don't feel like making extra rolls because the guard is just a mook I'll just use the initial Deception vs. Insight result to give the PC surprise).
 
Last edited:

Want to make this even more fun? Give one of the targets the Alert feat, which means they can't be surprised.

In my campaign, the party was walking down a dark hallway holding a torch. Ahead of them in the hallway, beyond the torchlight's radius, stood three enemies, armed with shortbows, standing motionless in ambush. Now, a torch sheds bright light in a 20 foot radius and dim light in a 20 foot radius past that. A shortbow has a close range of 80 feet.

The party was on high alert, and the barbarian has the alert feat, so by the rules nobody was surprised. I had them roll initiative, but they couldn't really take any actions since they didn't actually know there were enemies ahead. For all these reasons, hey were pissed when arrows flew out of the darkness and struck them.

After a heated discussion, we decided to treat the enemies hiding in the darkness ahead as invisible - meaning they had advantage on their attacks and the PCs had disadvantage on attacks against them. But the encounter did a great job of illustrating how tricky the surprise rules in this edition can be to navigate.
 

Situation 1: A rogue makes a successful stealth check and sneaks up behind a bored guard. I assume they are considered "unseen" and attack with advantage (and the guard is surprised).

Situation 2: A character in a busy crowd walks up behind a bored guard and attacks (no stealth check). Is he considered unseen?

Situation 3: A Warlock with Mask of Many Faces makes himself look like a friendly NPC, walks up to a bored guard, passes behind him, and then attacks the guard from behind. Is the Warlock unseen?

What does advantage represent? It represents your foe not being adequately prepared to defend himself against whatever you are doing IMO.

In all of the scenarios you posted I would give the character advantage as the foe isn't prepared to defend against it as described. I would even give the character advantage if attacking from the front of the guard as long as the weapon being used wasn't apparent or very threatening looking before the strike.

I would also resolve all these attacks in a surprise round of combat.
 
Last edited:

All of the scenarios describe a surprise round. The moment PCs or NPCs decide to attack, you go into initiative and determine surprise (page 69 basic rules)

According to the PH: "When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it."

"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you."

What about out of combat?

Situation 1: A rogue makes a successful stealth check and sneaks up behind a bored guard. I assume they are considered "unseen" and attack with advantage (and the guard is surprised).
Assuming the rogues stealth check is higher than the guard's passive perception I'd probably allow it.

Situation 2: A character in a busy crowd walks up behind a bored guard and attacks (no stealth check). Is he considered unseen?
No one in the crowd notices the character drawing a weapon? Stealth check vs passive perception. The character is hiding their weapon and so on.

Situation 3: A Warlock with Mask of Many Faces makes himself look like a friendly NPC, walks up to a bored guard, passes behind him, and then attacks the guard from behind. Is the Warlock unseen?
I don't see Disguise Self as being "I make myself look exactly like ____". You change your appearance, it does not say you change your appearance to that of another person. So yes, you can make yourself look like a generic guard, but not necessarily like Captain Bob.

In any case, I might require a deception check and a stealth check. The deception check to pass yourself off as someone else, the stealth check because you stop suddenly draw your weapon and go to stab the guard.
 

1) Stealth vs. Passive Perception allows for Surprise and Advantage. Pretty straightforward.

2) Deception vs. Passive Insight allows for Surprise, but not Advantage. Since the guard is aware of potential threats, I wouldn't allow Advantage. Deception vs. Passive Insight make sense to me, because you are trying to set up the attack without them realizing it.

3) Deception vs. Insight allows for Surprise and possibly Advantage. If there are no other threats around, I could see the guard lowering his guard enough to grant Advantage. Since it's a friendly NPC, as opposed to a random stranger, an active check makes more sense to me.
 

Want to make this even more fun? Give one of the targets the Alert feat, which means they can't be surprised.

Alert actually simplifies things, because then unseen attackers have no advantage against you, rendering seen vs. unseen a moot point.

The situation you describe, where the party "aren't surprised" but "can't really take any actions since they didn't actually know there were enemies ahead" is an artifact of the turn-by-turn initiative system. It works a lot more naturally if you go back to AD&D-style concurrent initiative. See my .sig, in which the OP covers this exact situation (ambush by hidden goblins).

BTW, Disguise Self is awesome in espionage-type situations, especially for illusionists with Malleable Illusion. You're basically Mystique from the X-Men.
 

Situation 1: A rogue makes a successful stealth check and sneaks up behind a bored guard. I assume they are considered "unseen" and attack with advantage (and the guard is surprised).

No.

Situation 2: A character in a busy crowd walks up behind a bored guard and attacks (no stealth check). Is he considered unseen?

No.

Situation 3: A Warlock with Mask of Many Faces makes himself look like a friendly NPC, walks up to a bored guard, passes behind him, and then attacks the guard from behind. Is the Warlock unseen?

No.

In all three cases the target can see the attacker, and so the attacker is not considered "unseen".

OTOH, they all sound like situations where the target would be surprised, meaning that they essentially skip their first round of combat.
 

According to the PH: "When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it."

"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you."
Being hidden generally requires some sort of obscurement. Most players don't want to take the penalty for the attack, and this seems counter to the idea of "getting the drop" on the bad guys.

My quick and dirty house rule is that the character can take one step (5' square on the grid) out of cover and still get the benefits of being hidden, as long as that's all he does before the attack. This simulates the standard movie scene of stepping from behind a car/crate/building and popping off a shot or two, then ducking back in. The counter to this is for the target to ready an action to shoot the annoying putz.

As an additional rule, I go ahead and interpret the rules on needing to be unseen to hide to include having full cover. The rationale is that hiding represents being a bit tricky in how you time your next attack -- I'm ambidextrous with a gun (right hand dominant, left eye dominant balance out) and have pulled off the "which way is he coming?" many times, in paintball. I generally give the target advantage on the Perception check, though.

What about out of combat?
Attacks never, ever happen outside combat, by definition. Starting the attack could be what triggers the roll for initiative. Successfully hiding, deceiving, etc. could result in your opponent being surprised. If they aren't surprised, then, yes, they could actually win initiative and you could be up a creek. If you suck at ambushes, don't do them.

Situation 1: A rogue makes a successful stealth check and sneaks up behind a bored guard. I assume they are considered "unseen" and attack with advantage (and the guard is surprised).
Correct. Roll initiative. Even if the guard wins, he's still surprised. He may have picked up that something is amiss and is in the process of gathering his wits, but he hasn't done so. You're hidden until you come into view (probably the attack roll, but depends on exact terrain).

Situation 2: A character in a busy crowd walks up behind a bored guard and attacks (no stealth check). Is he considered unseen?
No. The guard can still see you. Being hidden is, quite literally, being hidden.

The gray area comes in whether some non-stealth deception was used to look innocuous. Personally, I allow Deception and even Slight of Hand to be used, in certain circumstances, to surprise someone. Some DMs take a more literal interpretation of the surprise rules and only allow Stealth vs. Perception, no exceptions. Depending on exactly how the player went about it, I might let him use Deception instead of Stealth to hide amid the crowd. Probably not, though.

Either way, you aren't hidden. The guard may just be surprised -- which is good for other reasons, especially for Assassins.

Situation 3: A Warlock with Mask of Many Faces makes himself look like a friendly NPC, walks up to a bored guard, passes behind him, and then attacks the guard from behind. Is the Warlock unseen?
IMO, this is just surprising, not hiding. What I'd probably prefer is for a successful Deception check (with whatever benefits the Mask may give) to allow the Warlock to try for Stealth at advantage, due to the guard casually turning his back on his "friend". In this case, the Stealth check still shows how well the Warlock got into a position from which he cannot be seen; everything else is just a complex skill challenge.

That's the theory, anyway. If no real benefits were awarded (i.e. no Sneak Attack from multi-classing), I'd probably short-hand it and say, "Use your Deception to hide." That tends to bite me in the butt when the Rogue player decides that he's going to ride that short-hand ruling.
 

Remove ads

Top