When Fantasy Racism gets stupid

[Iapetus]

Awww... So they really just want to get a hug?

And stick a knife in your back.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

Meh, I get to hear more than enough "We're the bad guys" BS in real life. That's not my idea of a fun game.

What I find a lot more fun is putting good aligned groups/races/whatever at war with each other.

E.g., the humans want to build a town in an empty forest. A small number of elves live nomadically in the area, and the elves consider it fully occupied. Humans move in, get run out by elvish army and hostilities proceed apace. Both groups are good aligned, both consider themselves in the right, and they're still having a war over their differences.

This is a very simple example, and it already has a lot of potential for difficult decisions, diplomacy, and covert operation adventures by PCs. In short, fun.

 

[Mattachine]

Eberron did what the original poster suggested. Many liked it, many did not.

 

[delericho]

Eberron did what the original poster suggested. Many liked it, many did not.

Indeed. I'm an Eberron fan. Eberron is fantastic for what it is (as, indeed, are Dark Sun and Spelljammer).

But Eberron shouldn't be the default. The default should be something much closer to classic pseudo-medieval fantasy, in the mould of Tolkien - something closer to Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think that D&D Next, in the section of the new DM's Guide covering how to run the game, this should be discussed. As a DM, choosing to make your "bad guy" fantasy races intrinsically evil or more nuanced creatures with free will should be fine either way, but the choice should be understood and communicated to the players so that folks don't get irritated or upset when their expectations aren't met.

Totally agreed. Let the DM choose, and give them advice for whichever path they walk.

Awww... So they really just want to get a hug?

One could make a rather persuasive argument that a vast quantity of real-world "horrible things done to people against their will" were mostly inspired by something akin to this. It is striking how sometimes people so desperately seek a sense of belonging that they will propagate any number of cruelties simply for the approval of some other group.

But as for a more "modern" take on most of the "evil races," yeah, the idea is usually more that their cultures impose pathology on their members, mostly in the form of dogma from "evil gods." The Drow might not be evil on their own, but since Lolth exists, and since cultural momentum revolves around her, and she commands the Drow to do evil things, more drow than not will be evil, since they will be a part of that society.

Thus, by killing Lolth, a D&D character has started the long, painful process of turning an entire people of wicked creatures into potentially good (or at least no longer evil) creatures.

 

[Bluenose]

I think there's a happy medium between "all members of this humanoid race are metaphysically evil" and "orcs are noble savages," and I think that medium is called resource scarcity in a quasi-medieval environment.

But concerning their manners and superstitions, of the disposition and stature of their bodies, of their country and manner of fighting etc., he protested the particulars following to be true: namely, that they were above all others, covetous, hasty, deceitful, and merciless: notwithstanding, by reason of the rigor and extremity of punishments to be inflicted upon them by their superiors, they are restrained from brawlings, and from mutual strife and contention. The ancient founders and fathers of their tribes, they call by the name of gods, and at certain set times they do celebrate solemn feasts unto them, many of them being particular, & but four only general. They think that all things are created for themselves alone. They esteem it none offence to exercise cruelty against rebels. They are hardy and strong in the breast, lean and pale-faced, rough and hug-shouldered, having flat and short noses, long and sharp chins, their upper jaws are low and declining, their teeth long and thin, their eye-brows extending from their foreheads down to their noses, their eyes inconstand and black, their countenances writhen and terrible, their extreme joints strong with bones and sinews, having thick and great thighs, and short legs, and yet being equal unto us in stature: for that length which is wanting in their legs, is supplied in the upper parts of their bodies. Their country in old time was a land utterly desert and waste.

"Right. Because humans have a wide variety of cultures and beliefs, but all krogan are the same.

There may be something to what you say.

 

[avin]

I find intriguing how you guys have definitive ways of portrating races... in all these years I presented my players with "grey savage Orcs from barren lands", "ape-like black orcs from deep jungle", "pig-face Orc soldiers, slaves of a big evil guy", "bald dark grey orcs, from a post apocaliptic wasteland" and at least one "civilized Orc from an ancient empire lost in an Island"...

Not to mention campaigns in worlds where there's no orcs in the world... Humans vs Goblinoids, Humans vs Goatfolk...

It makes no sense, to me, why some people so fiercely defend that Orc, or any other race, should be X or Y...

 

[Gold Roger]

My problem with "Monsters are people too" is, where doe we draw the line. Manticores have a decent int score as well, as do Beholders and Othyoughs. Are all these people too? If so, what about Demons and Devils? Pretty damn intelligent, wise and intelligent, some of those buggers.


Apart from that, to be honest, I want both aproaches in my games and then some other stuff.

Sure orcs are just people (makes playable half-orcs easier) and so are most giants and kobolds. The fiendish blood of tieflings is not strong enough to corrupt them entirely.

But I like my always evil creatures, all the time creatures to. You meet a drow, gnoll, minotaur, goblinoid or Troll. You bet that being will be evil, no exception. It's good to have some groups of clear villains, it creates conflict in the gaming world, areas devoid of human civilisation and allows me as DM to explore all shades of evil without having a human psychopath on every street. Pragmatically, it also allows me to use Drow as DM and having a damn good reason to not have them as PC race.

And I also like having non-extra-planar always good, always chaotic and always lawfull creatures in my game world (all non PC-able). As well as creatures that are bound to certain behavior that's not related to alignment and beings that are simply behind understanding. So you might have nice, though odd conversation with a Kuo-Toa. That doesn't mean he thinks it imperative to remove your spleen, mummify it and carry it across the world, just to throw it down a chasm.

Stuff like that is part of a fantastic and magical world for me. The real world is nothing more than a referent point in fantasy and roleplaying to me, and that means a drastic departure from our world.

So yeah, orcs are almost human, drow are always vile and fey bargain their enchanted hair for your 3 next dreams is just my brand of fantasy.

 

[Yora]

To go right to the very extreme case, genocidal Nazi soldiers are also people. Yet anyone who fights them would not have a lot of inhibition of using lethal force against them.
So manticores and beholders are peple? If come into town causing destruction, killing anyone who tries to negotiate with them on sight, then it makes no difference if their Intelligence score is 2 or 12. You just kill them.

In turn, this means they should have reasons to attack in the first place, but this should be the case anyway. "Monster attacking because that's what monsters do" is bad plot writing.

 

[Bluenose]

To go right to the very extreme case, genocidal Nazi soldiers are also people. Yet anyone who fights them would not have a lot of inhibition of using lethal force against them.
So manticores and beholders are peple? If come into town causing destruction, killing anyone who tries to negotiate with them on sight, then it makes no difference if their Intelligence score is 2 or 12. You just kill them.

In turn, this means they should have reasons to attack in the first place, but this should be the case anyway. "Monster attacking because that's what monsters do" is bad plot writing.

Think about what you have in common with a genocidal nazi soldier. Then consider how your statement about killing enemies that come to town destroying and killing makes plenty of sense, and whether you'd like that applied because of what someone does or because of what they are.