D&D General When (or can) the fiction overrides the DM?

[MichaelSomething]

On occasion, we bring up the topic of the "fiction" of the game. On how it should be what drives the game. If the fiction is the greatest driver of the game, does that mean it should overrides the DM. Have you ever wanted to do something as the DM but stopped yourself because of the fiction? But wouldn't you consider that the DM is the highest level source of fiction? I'm not sure what the answer is; what do you all think???

 

[Mercurius]

Many authors have said something to the effect that as they get deeper into a novel, the story starts "writing itself." Characters will do things that were unplanned and unexpected, and ideas just come seemingly out of nowhere.

Now a DM, while ultimately the arbiter of the game world and everything within it, is only the partial author of the fiction. They cannot control what the PCs do, though they can--if they want--control the outcome, or at least guide it in a certain direction.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm guessing that most DMs approach the fiction in a similar fashion as the novelists mentioned above, yet even more collaborative with the "unplanned and unexpected" due to the presence of the players and their actions that impact the fiction.

Or to put it another way, the DM is the game world - they decide what exists within it, and also--to a large extent--what and who the PCs interact with. But they aren't the fiction, not alone. The fiction is a co-creation of the DM's world (and choices) and player actions.

EDIT: I think the word "override" is a bit distracting and inaccurate the dynamics in most games, because it implies a conflict that doesn't really exist - at least in the vast majority of cases. The inherent nature of RPG fiction is collaborative, so nothing is "overriden." A DM might start the players on a certain course and have a basic outline of how it might unfold, but the vast majority don't hold rigidly to it. Maybe in moments, but most DMs "flow with" the collaboration. IME, at least.

 

[CleverNickName]

On occasion, we bring up the topic of the "fiction" of the game. On how it should be what drives the game. If the fiction is the greatest driver of the game, does that mean it should overrides the DM. Have you ever wanted to do something as the DM but stopped yourself because of the fiction? But wouldn't you consider that the DM is the highest level source of fiction? I'm not sure what the answer is; what do you all think???

I mean, who hasn't sat in the DM Chair and suppressed the urge to shout "Rocks fall, everybody dies!" at least once? Players can be incredibly antagonistic, petty, and frustrating to each other, and to the DM most of all. Often, it's the fiction alone that keeps them from being wiped from the face of the imaginary planet. "I can't kill them all yet, otherwise the story dies with them."

Most players never know how close their constant arguments about Advantage and Darkvision bring them to annihilation.

EDIT: Of course I'm kidding. Well, exaggerating anyway. There's never been an argument at the table bad enough to want me to TPK everyone and start over. But I have called an early end to the gaming session before, because two players couldn't stop antagonizing each other.

 

[overgeeked]

On occasion, we bring up the topic of the "fiction" of the game. On how it should be what drives the game. If the fiction is the greatest driver of the game, does that mean it should overrides the DM. Have you ever wanted to do something as the DM but stopped yourself because of the fiction? But wouldn't you consider that the DM is the highest level source of fiction? I'm not sure what the answer is; what do you all think???

The fiction is the most important thing. To me, the focus is a world with as much verisimilitude as possible. All the referee’s decisions should come from the fiction or be plausible based on the fiction. If the rules get in the way of what is dictated by the fiction, then the rules change or are ignored. You fall 500ft. Take a lava bath without fire immunity. Someone cuts your throat in your sleep. You’re dead. End of. I’ve no interest D&D as superhero fantasy sim.

 

[Ancalagon]

Similar to @Mercurius ' experience, I find sometimes questions can be really a useful tool creatively.

For example, in the Yoon-Suin setting, slugmen are always mages or clerics. But it doesn't explain why, beyond slugmen being lovers of magic.

So when I ran Yoon-Suin and made it my own (something explicitly encouraged by the book), I asked myself "why?". The answer became a huge determinant of how my Slugmen society worked, and some of those ideas surprised me.

Sometimes small details of player actions can have major impacts on how a scene plays out. The party rescued a slugman who had been captured for 2 years. I anticipated his return to his house to not go well - his fellow nobles simply assumed he had gone on a trip and never bothered looking for him, and would blurt this out.

But because the party told these nobles in advance and didn't just show up with the rescued slugman, the nobles had time to prepare and receive him. So the rescued slugman never became an independent scornful of his own house.

 

[Yora]

As the GM, all your choices should be informed by what has previously been established in the campaign and be a logical consequence of what has happened before. But that is still a choice by the GM, and you still always have the option to seriously change things by adding new elements to the game as it is being played.
Sometimes you might want to do things but decide not to do them because they would really disrupt what's currently going on and would seem out of place or inconsistent to the players. But you still can do it if you want. It's always your choice as GM.

 

[Shiroiken]

I think it's less a matter of if the DM can override the fiction, but a question of if they should. The DM can do whatever they want, but there are consequences.

 

[beancounter]

I'm struggling to understand exactly what you mean by fiction. The DM creates the world and the players write the story "fiction" through their actions. It's a process that unfolds and changes naturally.

By saying the DM wouldn't let you do something sounds like he unexpectedly changed RAW that resulted in you not being able to do something that you thought you could. Or maybe changed the laws of physics in the world.

A specific example would be helpful.

 

[Krachek]

I define the fiction as what has happened in the previous games. what the PCs has played, seen, know about. For me that hardly movable.

DM and players can also place value in the information contain into the prep notes, the mapping of the DM, or even in a plublished adventure or official lore of DND. Most of this content has not been played by the PCs, they may not know it, or have only guess. Some DM and players can be also view this information as part of the fiction. I don’t consider this information as the fiction.

So I don’t hesitate to overwrite material I prepare and PCs have not been into.
Common example are : changing true motivation of an Npc, make vanish or appear dungeon rooms, or simply adding random encounters right on time.

 

[jgsugden]

I really do not know how to answer this question.

When I DM, I plant seeds. Then, the seeds grow. Sometimes the PCs guide how they grow. Sometimes they decide not to interact with a seed and it grows without them. Either way, the story plays out until it resolves into a new stable status quo.

Have I ever had plans for a storyline that were changed by the actions of the PCs - resulting in something I thought would happen not coming to fruition? Of course. Did it 'override' me? Not from my perspective, but you could argue yes. I knew the story is not just mine to tell, so I was not dictating where it would go ... I just planted seeds and played my part in how it grew. I had a 'default' resolution in mind had the PCs not decided to be involved ... but the PCs took another path.

The DM sets the stage. The players drive the stories they want to drive. This has been true of all the great homebrew games in which I've played - the PCs are the main characters, the DM is the rest of the world, and they all work together to tell stories. Nobody owns the entire story.