MichaelSomething
Legend
I thought Draco was an example of the former?
D&D General When (or can) the fiction overrides the DM?
I thought Draco was an example of the former?
Oofta
Legend
It wasn't exactly clear, I may have misunderstood. If so, oops. Since it was in response to my post that the players dictating an NPC's motivations I assumed it was example of the players telling the DM what an NPC thought. Given that I've never read the books and only saw the movies under duress*, to me Draco was simply a more complicated NPC and one that eventually realized that what he was doing wasn't a game.
Sometimes I like having complicated villains. An example was a nemesis the group had grown up with (the campaign started out as youngsters) was actually a victim of abuse and coercion. She was being groomed to be the BBEG and in my broad outline of actors and future campaign arcs, I assumed she would be one. Over the course of many sessions and interactions the PCs helped her reject what was supposed to be her destiny. Much like Draco.
*My wife's a big fan. I thought the movies were ... okay.
Greenstone.Walker
Adventurer
It is the GM's job to decide the fiction. Players can prompt this, but the GM is the final arbiter.
For example, if the GM says, "The ruler of Neverwinter is Lord Baadguey the Viileen," then the players might say, "Hang on, the SCAG says it is Dagult Neverember." but the GM has the right (the mandate? the prerogative?) to say, "I know, but in this game its Baadguey."
When the players are disagreeing with that, they are, to put it bluntly, wrong.
Player: I talk to Lord Neverember.
GM: No, it's Lord Baadguey.
Player: No, it's Lord Neverember. Also, he's a Harper so I show my Harper pin so he has to grant my request.
GM: No, he doesn't.
Player: This is unfair! How come you never let me use my character's abilities!?
Now, players can certainly misread and misunderstand the game world. In a game I am GMing right now, the players have completely ignored any evidence that their opponents are simply brainwashed peasants magically dominated by four evil bad guys™. This is not going to absolve them of the consequences of killing tens of basically-innocent farmers.
In my games, if the players say "No, he's right, maybe a bit rougher then we like, but lets go talk to and join him" then they are now the villains and the game ends, because I'm not interesting in GMing villain characters.
I also believe it is the DM's job to decide when and if the fiction overrides the rules.
For example, a player declares, "My character does X" and the GM responds, "X is impossible, you can't do it." The player complains, 'But don't I get to make a roll?" and the answer is, "No, you don't."
The game rules say that the players gets to roll a skill check but the fiction (the game world) overrides that because their desired action has zero chance of success. Or 100% chance of success, in which cas the GM says, 'You succeed."
For example, if the GM says, "The ruler of Neverwinter is Lord Baadguey the Viileen," then the players might say, "Hang on, the SCAG says it is Dagult Neverember." but the GM has the right (the mandate? the prerogative?) to say, "I know, but in this game its Baadguey."
When the players are disagreeing with that, they are, to put it bluntly, wrong.
Player: I talk to Lord Neverember.
GM: No, it's Lord Baadguey.
Player: No, it's Lord Neverember. Also, he's a Harper so I show my Harper pin so he has to grant my request.
GM: No, he doesn't.
Player: This is unfair! How come you never let me use my character's abilities!?
Now, players can certainly misread and misunderstand the game world. In a game I am GMing right now, the players have completely ignored any evidence that their opponents are simply brainwashed peasants magically dominated by four evil bad guys™. This is not going to absolve them of the consequences of killing tens of basically-innocent farmers.
In my games, if the players say "No, he's right, maybe a bit rougher then we like, but lets go talk to and join him" then they are now the villains and the game ends, because I'm not interesting in GMing villain characters.
I also believe it is the DM's job to decide when and if the fiction overrides the rules.
For example, a player declares, "My character does X" and the GM responds, "X is impossible, you can't do it." The player complains, 'But don't I get to make a roll?" and the answer is, "No, you don't."
The game rules say that the players gets to roll a skill check but the fiction (the game world) overrides that because their desired action has zero chance of success. Or 100% chance of success, in which cas the GM says, 'You succeed."
rmcoen
Adventurer
In my current world, there is no contact with other planes (because backStory for the world). Therefore, I cannot (should not) suddenly decide to drop in "oh, except for this guy, because now I want a god in the story... ooh ooh, and the demon he's fighting... .and they summon elementals!" However, I can have a god-LIKE being battling a demon-LIKE being, who battle using pieces of the EXISTING WORLD that they empower which FUNCTIONALLY work like elementals.
Likewise, I would not allow a PC to take the demon-hunting Paladin Oath, because there are no demons and therefore no reason for that Oath to exist. Similarly, the PCs will never find a demon-slaying sword, as there are no demons to slay, and no reason for the sword to exist. (Unless this is a CLUE about the STORY's justification in the first place... but I'm not running that game in this particular scenario.)
On the other hand, I can change the ongoing story, despite the fiction. For example:
The story has Three Kingdoms at war with the rest of the Tribe- (goblinoid & giant) -controlled world. Would it make sense for one Kingdom to attack the others in this "if we don't stick together, we all die" situation? Well, humans are involved, so sure. Can I just throw that into the campaign without warning? I could - the PCs are all on the NW frontier, the war could start in the SE. And the PCs haven't spent much time in the Kingdoms, maybe they just missed the early signs. And as DM, I could retroactively write in some political manoeuvring and clues that happened where they didn't see. And for extra twists, put some nobles they like in support of the war, and some they don't like as being opposed, for some interesting RP choices.
So yes, the fiction can "override" the DM's impulses at times. But the DM controls the world, so sometimes big or abrupt changes can still occur. Also, MAGIC. Maybe a BBEG they didn't know about succeeded in his EVIL PLOT because the heroes local to him failed.
And then there's the least favourable option: throw a rock at it. A comet crashes into the world, and now this happens....
Likewise, I would not allow a PC to take the demon-hunting Paladin Oath, because there are no demons and therefore no reason for that Oath to exist. Similarly, the PCs will never find a demon-slaying sword, as there are no demons to slay, and no reason for the sword to exist. (Unless this is a CLUE about the STORY's justification in the first place... but I'm not running that game in this particular scenario.)
On the other hand, I can change the ongoing story, despite the fiction. For example:
The story has Three Kingdoms at war with the rest of the Tribe- (goblinoid & giant) -controlled world. Would it make sense for one Kingdom to attack the others in this "if we don't stick together, we all die" situation? Well, humans are involved, so sure. Can I just throw that into the campaign without warning? I could - the PCs are all on the NW frontier, the war could start in the SE. And the PCs haven't spent much time in the Kingdoms, maybe they just missed the early signs. And as DM, I could retroactively write in some political manoeuvring and clues that happened where they didn't see. And for extra twists, put some nobles they like in support of the war, and some they don't like as being opposed, for some interesting RP choices.
So yes, the fiction can "override" the DM's impulses at times. But the DM controls the world, so sometimes big or abrupt changes can still occur. Also, MAGIC. Maybe a BBEG they didn't know about succeeded in his EVIL PLOT because the heroes local to him failed.
And then there's the least favourable option: throw a rock at it. A comet crashes into the world, and now this happens....
