D&D General When (or can) the fiction overrides the DM?

[HaroldTheHobbit]

For a new game I usually set up a meta frame for the campaign with a possible bbeg, and the skeleton for a first plot arch. But letting the players wrong conclusions, absurd ideas, "in character" npc bantering and hilarious actions guide my prep and DM:ing makes for a way more enjoyable and creative story than I can ever think up on my own.

So if fiction is letting the players actions guide the story within very wide frames, then yes, fiction overriding the DM is the basis of my games.

 

[Oofta]

I agree. A DM that gets surprised and has something wacky happen because of that, does not fit changing fiction. That is just a DM problem.

Though the PCs digging a new tunnel has nothing to do with "the fiction". And a player randomly creating things is just cheating.

My example wasn't digging a tunnel, it was the players claiming that there was already a secret passage. Whether that is cheating or not is up to the group and while not the default assumption of D&D it is in some other RPGs. For example, the player may be able to spend an inspiration point (or some other meta game token) to change the fiction of the game. Some groups build entire worlds collaboratively.

There are gray areas of course. If the PCs are in a town and ask if there's a blacksmith and I hadn't established it, the answer may vary from "of course" because it's a decent sized town to a percentage chance because it's a small hamlet. People can establish things about their backstory as well, although I ask that we get an outline in the session 0 and if it's at all game changing that they run it by me out of game.

Players establishing consequential to the game fiction doesn't work in my game, and I have had players try to modify the fiction of the world. But that player couldn't "cheat" by establishing fiction, it just didn't happen because I simply said "no". I'll work with my players, but there is a pretty clear line I establish in my session 0.

 

[Oofta]

If I've established fiction such as "The Holy Order of Truth will always [fill in the blank]" that doesn't mean that I can tell a player who happens to be a member of HOOT what they think or do. Doesn't mean I won't remind them of the tenets of the order. They may be in trouble with HOOT if they don't [fill in the blank] or even loose their cherished membership card, but they can always do what they want. For that matter even though I have a "no evil PC" rule, they can still decide to cross over to the dark side*. Their PC become an NPC that I control, but it's still an option.

*They claim to have cookies. Much like the cake, it's a lie. It takes true evil to lie about cookies.

 

[bloodtide]

Really? That's the lesson you took from this?

The fact that I prepared one encounter suddenly makes it railroading. Really.

Did you truly expect this would get anything even remotely like a positive response?

The only "lesson" I see is the DM is all powerful and can do what they want on a whim. That is exactly what you did. Though I also saw you deflect it, you tossed up the "fiction overide" smoke screen so others would not think you did it.

As a Railroad Tycoon, and hard core unfair Railroading DM......you did a bit more then one encounter. Of course, to me, railroading is a good thing.

I was hopping for a "oh, sorry my example did fit. Here is another one."

If you have an example where you as DM were "overrided", by someone else , who told you how to run your game, that might be a better example.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Nope

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

On occasion, we bring up the topic of the "fiction" of the game. On how it should be what drives the game. If the fiction is the greatest driver of the game, does that mean it should overrides the DM. Have you ever wanted to do something as the DM but stopped yourself because of the fiction? But wouldn't you consider that the DM is the highest level source of fiction? I'm not sure what the answer is; what do you all think???

PERSONALLY, my preferred sort of GMing doesn't 'own' the fiction. I may be a significant, in some ways the most significant, contributor TO the fiction, but fiction is more the outcome of the process of play than it is something that is PRESENTED in play.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The only "lesson" I see is the DM is all powerful and can do what they want on a whim. That is exactly what you did. Though I also saw you deflect it, you tossed up the "fiction overide" smoke screen so others would not think you did it.

As a Railroad Tycoon, and hard core unfair Railroading DM......you did a bit more then one encounter. Of course, to me, railroading is a good thing.

I was hopping for a "oh, sorry my example did fit. Here is another one."

If you have an example where you as DM were "overrided", by someone else , who told you how to run your game, that might be a better example.

Your position has become completely circular, so no, I'm not interested in discussing it further.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Pretend for a moment that something as silly as God exists.

Mod Note:

DUDE. When I accidentally insulted all Muslims because I edited a post poorly (before I became a moderator), I got a well-deserved week’s vacation from the website.

Guess what?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The only "lesson" I see is the DM is all powerful and can do what they want on a whim. That is exactly what you did. Though I also saw you deflect it, you tossed up the "fiction overide" smoke screen so others would not think you did it.

As a Railroad Tycoon, and hard core unfair Railroading DM......you did a bit more then one encounter. Of course, to me, railroading is a good thing.

I was hopping for a "oh, sorry my example did fit. Here is another one."

If you have an example where you as DM were "overrided", by someone else , who told you how to run your game, that might be a better example.

Mod Note:

This is getting pretty personal and rather testy to boot. Tone it down.

Ditto anyone else thinking about posting in a similar fashion. This thread is generating a spike in reports, so be on notice.

 

[MichaelSomething]

That's not changing the fiction IMHO. Changing the fiction would be the players deciding that the BBEG is not really a homicidal maniac who just wants to see the world burn is instead just misunderstood and with the right approach is actually a nice guy.