When should players challenge the DM and when should they be quiet?

[Silver Moon]

Life or death = challenge
Stupid little things /= challenge

That's my position. I'd hate to see a beloved PC die becuse I made a mistake rather than how it was played. Other than that challenges only slow down the game and take away from the fun. Even when the DM does make errors there are always ways to rationalize them given that it is fantasy magic and a made up story to begin with.

 

[nimisgod]

Even though I prefer running my homebrew, when I GM, I like it when Players try to question my rulings. In my old group, I had a player who had an encyclopedic knowledge of the rules. He saved the party several times by pointing out a rule or two in their favor (Undead can't run, etc). In fact, as a GM, even though I have a good grasp of the rules, I get some things wrong.

But then I encounter players who claim that "this way" is right and my way is wrong. one particular player claimed that he could do 2 standard actions in a round and that I needed do deal enough non-lethal damage vs. his total hps (not current) in order to down him.

In these moments, I give the player a chance to cite the page he was pertaining to. If he can't prove me wrong, then, my ruling stands.

Of course, I've been on the other side of the screen, too. I've had my moments where I thought I was right and the GM was wrong and I was proven humiliatingly wrong. After one of these, I learned to keep my mouth shut most of the time. Then again, there was that time that the GM allowed the dwarf to climb an illusionary pillar (the dwarf didn't know it was an illusion but somehow it could support his weight...) I just kept silent and let it pass, then chalk it up to playing style differences.

 

[John Crichton]

I prefer it when players attempt to argue with me. It means that I don't have to do as much work. If we can sidetrack the session for 30 minutes over a pointless rule argument that I eventually win anyway, I can make the player look stupid, and save myself a lot of work. I can further drag the argument out by mumbling a lot and going off on random tangents. This way, even if I don't win the argument, I was clearly too exhausted to be thinking straight anyway. Either way, I save a lot of work as the adventure I prepared can be extended for longer, meaning I have more time to think of what to do next.

In fact, this is a very good technique if you're stumped as to what to do next and need to buy time: Create an egregious rule blunder. A player will surely call you on it. Drag this out into an extended argument, conceding the point only when you've come up with what you want to do next.

LOL! I thought I was the only one. j/k

I usually DM and player questioning is fine if it is quick and painless. If someone really wants to be a jerk about something then I take offense and the game slows or stops. I want to know the rules and get them right so if there is something a player REALLY wants to check on, we'll stop, whip out the rulebooks and check. I do my homework most of the time before we play so I'm typically ready for things but occassionally things pop up. Now, if it is rule that require interpretation or is a little cloudy, I rule on it and move on.

As a player... hoo boy. I am a big-time rules lawyer. It annoys me when the rules are done wrong and I ALWAYS say something, no matter how big or small if I pick up on it. I especially hate it when a another PC "gets away" with something. Just bugs me to no end. My salvation: My current DM is really good. He knows his stuff and while I may pull out the rules lawyer stick, his is just as big, if not bigger. His rules-fu is strong and he indulges me from time to time by checking the books if he is not sure.

I am working on letting the little stuff slide as it should be let sliden.

 

[Trickstergod]

Let's see...DM's can cheat, such as by making a monster more powerful halfway through the encounter when the PC's begin to breeze through it, or by having that non-integral to the storyline wizard cast dimension door when he never even had it in his spellbook to begin with, amongst other things...

Also, no, I don't think challenging the DM is in poor taste. I say this as someone who regularly DM's. However, don't let it drag on - point out the mistake/rule/whatever, ask that question, let the DM give a response, and if he agrees, great, and if not - and you still disagree - save it until after game.

Unless it's going to get the party killed or do something else truly horrific/game shattering, then don't make a big deal of it. Point out the apparent faux pas, let the DM comment, and then let it go until after game.

 

[Gnimish88]

I am also this type of person. I'm trying to quit. It ain't easy.

AR

Amen, Brother.

 

[Elf Witch]

As a player I think it is okay to ask a question if you think the DM is wrong and it is important if the outcome could cause a PC death or something big.

What I can't stand is when players bring the game to a standstill arguing with the DM after we have looked at the rules and he has made his judgement. Wait until after the session if you don't agree.

I also get tired of players who feel that the DM must always have his creatures be exactly as they are in the monster manual come on it is okay for the DM to get creative.

If is because you don't trust your DM to play fair then why do you play with him.

 

[jayaint]

In our campaign, we have three VERY NEW players (2 who have never played before, and 1 who is an old-school convert), myself, and a DM who has played longer than... well... a long time. We handle things like this: As the most experienced one playing, I usually field all the newbie-type-"what-does-X-do?" questions, and help people tally and total, while the DM concentrates on the mechanics, story, etc.

However, when either I or one of the other players have a question that I cant answer, or dont know how the DM would implement said answer, I pass it along to the DM, in the form of a quick question, with the appropriate page in the books open on my lap.

But we have yet to have any arguments or challenges, per se. Everything works out really well.

 

[Ranes]

As a player... hoo boy. I am a big-time rules lawyer. It annoys me when the rules are done wrong and I ALWAYS say something, no matter how big or small if I pick up on it. I especially hate it when a another PC "gets away" with something. Just bugs me to no end. My salvation: My current DM is really good. He knows his stuff and while I may pull out the rules lawyer stick, his is just as big, if not bigger. His rules-fu is strong and he indulges me from time to time by checking the books if he is not sure.

You'd be welcome in my game any time. My last campaign, one player was a friend of a friend whom I had previously met only once. We were both long time gamers with lots of DMing experience. His third edition experience was greater than mine.

I had rustled up players by saying that I wanted to run my first 3E campaign as close to the core rules as I could, having read them and been surprised by how much I thought I liked them.

He frequently called me, in a friendly, polite way, if he was aware of me making an error that he thought was important. He would sometimes do this when the correct ruling went against another player. If his call favoured the party or his PC in particular, he had a tendency to phrase the challenge as a query.

But he was usually right and able to reference quickly. When he was wrong, because of course he sometimes was, he happily acknoweldged it. If he caught me out on trivia, he'd let me know it, grinning geekishly at the end of the session.

I still managed to show him a few tricks.

His roleplaying was spot on and entertained the whole group. He was one of the best players I've ever met, not that I'd ever tell him.

Shame we've both relocated beyond the bounds of viable, regular game commuting recently.

 

[reiella]

Simple non-useful answer, not when it will detract from the game.

For the most part, for me, it's less about challenging the rule, it's arguing/debating the rule that frustrates me, since that takes a good chunk of the game time out and breaks environment. It's no fun for 1/4 of a game session to be arguments over "but Trolls with the Elemental (Fire) template aren't vulnerable to Ice!".

 

[S'mon]

If the DM makes an egregious mistake that is going to fundamentally alter the campaign, then challenge him.

If the DM forgets some minor rule that will make little difference, then don't bother.

I agree with that - as DM I'd hate to think I killed a PC because of some error the player knew about but didn't dare point out!