D&D General When the fiction doesn't match the mechanics

[Hussar]

Whether it’s typical for some to have several AP volumes and never have run any of them? Maybe not. But for some to have a number of APs and have run only a minority of them? Oh, yeah, that’s common. If you subscribed to the monthly APs from Paizo, you got 3-4 APs in the time it often takes a group to run one to completion. So yeah, they’re being bought to be read (with the potential for being run) a lot. Paizo knows this which is why, in part, they were written the way they were, and with so much setting material. They knew that if you weren’t gonna run that issue, they could still make it worth your while with setting material.

OTOH, WotC publishes a fraction of what Paizo does. As you say, they've banged out a LOT of material since Pathfinder started.

WotC only publishes, what, half of the page count of Paizo? Less? And still, both are maintaining about the same ratio of adventure to non-adventure material. I find this ratio to be pretty satisfying. And it's a HELL of a lot higher than it was in the past. I mean, good grief, a good chunk of @Voadam's 2e publications he lists above were 1e modules being reprinted. And, remember, these were very thin publications compared to the length of other books.

A 64 page adventure book was a pretty meaty adventure book in the day. A 200 page setting supplement was pretty common. You can't just look at title count.

 

[Micah Sweet]

OTOH, WotC publishes a fraction of what Paizo does. As you say, they've banged out a LOT of material since Pathfinder started.

WotC only publishes, what, half of the page count of Paizo? Less? And still, both are maintaining about the same ratio of adventure to non-adventure material. I find this ratio to be pretty satisfying. And it's a HELL of a lot higher than it was in the past. I mean, good grief, a good chunk of @Voadam's 2e publications he lists above were 1e modules being reprinted. And, remember, these were very thin publications compared to the length of other books.

A 64 page adventure book was a pretty meaty adventure book in the day. A 200 page setting supplement was pretty common. You can't just look at title count.

64 pages is too much if you don't care much for adventure paths. Don't worry, I know it goes the other way too.

 

[Hussar]

64 pages is too much if you don't care much for adventure paths. Don't worry, I know it goes the other way too.

Kinda hard to argue when the ratio of page count is about 10:1. Even today, the ratio is about 1:1 or there abouts. You might not like the supplements, that's fair. But, you cannot pretend that they don't exist. And, frankly, I find that the complaints about the lack of setting supplements are extremely overblown.

Take SCAG for example. People kept telling me how there is little to no setting information in SCAG. Here is the Fantasy Grounds Map for SCAG:

Now, you see every one of those little pins? Every single one of those is a location within the Sword Coast and has about a 500 word write up detailing that location. How much more information do you actually need? There's a TON of setting material there. Every major location has an overview article. And that's just one setting guide. The Sword Coast does have MUCH more material. I mean, good grief, WotC just handed out a free Baldur's Gate Gazeteer, a 40 page book on a single city. Waterdeep has the same with the Waterdeep Enchiridion - 27 pages of pure flavor for Waterdeep. Never minding the mountain of setting material in Waterdeep Dragon Heist.

I'm really having a tough time seeing how WotC isn't giving you lots of setting material. There's a setting book pretty much every year. Typically more than one.

I'm sorry you don't like what they're offering. That's fair. But, it's right there. It's not like you're being ignored.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Kinda hard to argue when the ratio of page count is about 10:1. Even today, the ratio is about 1:1 or there abouts. You might not like the supplements, that's fair. But, you cannot pretend that they don't exist. And, frankly, I find that the complaints about the lack of setting supplements are extremely overblown.

Take SCAG for example. People kept telling me how there is little to no setting information in SCAG. Here is the Fantasy Grounds Map for SCAG:

View attachment 294164

Now, you see every one of those little pins? Every single one of those is a location within the Sword Coast and has about a 500 word write up detailing that location. How much more information do you actually need? There's a TON of setting material there. Every major location has an overview article. And that's just one setting guide. The Sword Coast does have MUCH more material. I mean, good grief, WotC just handed out a free Baldur's Gate Gazeteer, a 40 page book on a single city. Waterdeep has the same with the Waterdeep Enchiridion - 27 pages of pure flavor for Waterdeep. Never minding the mountain of setting material in Waterdeep Dragon Heist.

I'm really having a tough time seeing how WotC isn't giving you lots of setting material. There's a setting book pretty much every year. Typically more than one.

I'm sorry you don't like what they're offering. That's fair. But, it's right there. It's not like you're being ignored.

Well, I never really cared for the Realms personally. My favorite books for it were the god books you hated and the Avatar Trilogy of novels. So I don't really care what they've put out for it, other than that i wish they had made stuff for other settings (pre-Tasha's and the new D&D order). It's the more recent stuff for other settings I have the biggest problem with.

Of course, that plays into your point. I suppose it is more that I don't like the 5e setting material and compare it unfavorably to pre-WotC editions than that they haven't put out much of it. Thanks for saying you're sorry I don't like it. I'm happy you're getting stuff you can use, even if I'm not. They're not going to do what I want anyway.

 

[Hussar]

Well, I never really cared for the Realms personally. My favorite books for it were the god books you hated and the Avatar Trilogy of novels. So I don't really care what they've put out for it, other than that i wish they had made stuff for other settings (pre-Tasha's and the new D&D order). It's the more recent stuff for other settings I have the biggest problem with.

Of course, that plays into your point. I suppose it is more that I don't like the 5e setting material and compare it unfavorably to pre-WotC editions than that they haven't put out much of it. Thanks for saying you're sorry I don't like it. I'm happy you're getting stuff you can use, even if I'm not. They're not going to do what I want anyway.

Wow. Hated? Why would I hate them? See, you keep reading stuff into what I'm saying that's not what I'm actually saying. I do feel that those god books were largely pointless. Fun reads, but, as far as a game book goes, a waste of money. 4 pages out of 200 in 25 years is not a particularly useful book to me.

For some bizarre reason, people seem to equate "I don't think these are particularly useful" with "I hate these".

To me, things like Dragonheist or Curse of Strahd are exactly what I want in a setting book. Not specifically those adventures, but, that format. A fairly sandboxy adventure for low levels like Dragonheist, that will ground the players in the setting and give them a really good view of the setting. It's, to my mind, the best way to present a setting that is actually practical at the table.

Think about it. If you play through Dragonheist, and it's not that long, only 1st to 5th level, so, maybe 6 months of play? Ish? If you play through it, the players will:

1. Be introduced to all the major factions in the setting as well as potentially join one or more, complete with statted NPC's, locations and potential missions and adventures for each faction.
2. Be grounded in the setting by virtue of earning a home base where they will meet numerous NPC's in the process of reconstructing their base, as well as getting a solid view of the day to day lives of people in Waterdeep.
3. Travel to nearly every part of the city, seeing each ward of the city, meeting individuals in each ward as well as interacting with businesses and whatnot in each ward.
4. Be introduced, without infodumping, to large amounts of the history of the setting in a way that is contextualized and memorable.
5. Be introduced to many of the movers and shakers of the city along with a number of plot threads and potential adventure hooks.

In my mind, it doesn't get better than that. THAT'S how you show a setting. These high altitude guides where you get endless pages of descriptions without any sort of adventure or actual directly usable material are the bane of the hobby. They're pointless. Great for reading material, I suppose, but, for a game book? Yeah, no thanks.