D&D General When the fiction doesn't match the mechanics

[EzekielRaiden]

i personally interpreted it to mean, or at least thought it made more sense to mean that half health is the point where it starts becoming blatantly obvious that you're battle-worn to some degree, like here's a poison/sickness example:
some days you're ill, your body is just off kilter and not feeling quite right, fundamentally you're at less than full HP but you still look to the casual observer pretty much all okay, but someone who takes a closer look and you're more pale than you usually are and your hands are oddly cold, then half health is the point where you're visibly clammy and your eyes are all red.

above half health you might have a nick or bruise or two, a little out of breath and cheeks are kinda pink, past half there's a slice on your side that's bleeding, you're holding your arm at a conspicuously not-relaxed angle and not moving it in a certain way, you're breathing heavy and your face is red.

4e specifically called it "bloodied," and explained it more or less like this. Before "bloodied," you might get scuffed up, but you hadn't really taken much outright injury yet. It was actually extremely useful to have this as a status, because you could tie all sorts of useful things to it. For example, I remember vividly a fun boss fight I went through in a 4e adventure where GREGOR the strange, strange man attacked us, and he went through four different phases--initial, post-bloodied, transformed after being "killed" and revived as a revenant, and bloodied as a revenant. It was a delightful fight, both mechanically and narratively (the DM gave GREGOR a delightfully scenery-chewing personality.)

Edit: And this, incidentally, was the meaning behind Healing Surges and the like. There's only so far you can push yourself, so much you can draw from the well of resilience and determination etc. Once that well is dry, combat is incredibly dangerous and you should really stop. Combat becomes VERY lethal in 4e if you have to fight while out of surges.

 

[Hussar]

And the depressing posts just keep on coming. You're making it very difficult to be happy for you.

@Micah Sweet, I know I hit love on that post. It's just that it really did make me laugh out loud. And, totally not in a schadenfreude way.

Look, I totally get it. Again, you have to remember that I've been on the other side of this equation for about twenty five years or so. All of 2e, 3e and a good chunk of 4e as well. I've a stack of Dragon Magazines and setting guides, an entire run of Scarred Lands, and various other bits and bobs. I've given it a try to be honest. I want to like this stuff. But, I just bounce off of it so hard. It's all so ... pointless.

No, that's the wrong word. I get the point. It's meant for reading. It's meant for gamers who aren't actually playing but still want to engage in the hobby. But, that's never been me. I've run weekly games pretty much without a break, other than a few years at the tail end of 4e and the first few years in 5e, since the 80's. I NEED stuff that helps me at the table. I need material that's good to go. I don't need a bunch of setting material, no matter that it is interesting or not. It's just not helping me.

So, yeah, I'm pretty happy right now. I get a new AP every year (usually two) and I can pick and choose what my next campaign is going to be. Hell, i'm pretty sure that the next one is going to be that new Phandelver module when it comes out. So, right now I'm doing Spelljammer, and the next one will be Phandelver. That's my gaming for the next two years or so. What am I supposed to do with an Eberron setting guide? Or even a Forgotten Realms one that isn't focused on the Sword Coast?

Sure, it's interesting, and creative and fun to read. I get that. But, I also have a stack of novels waiting for me to read as well. Something had to give and I'm just really happy that the dice fell my way for a change.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Not D&D, but I've been playing this game called Fleaux!, dark fantasy type with light rules. It's fun, but I think there's definitely a dissonance between the fiction the game wants for the characters and what the mechanics give. For example, the text just at the start:

The world's only hope may lie with the nobodies, the drifters, and the scoundrels who walk the dark alleys and muddy roads of crumbling empires and emerging kingdoms. Facing Chaos after accepting an “easy " job or simply by answering a call for help, it's the actions of these unlikely heroes that will make a difference. Perhaps.

The characters were all raised in a grim world, and there are backgrounds like Mercenary, Bounty Hunter, Bodyguard, etc. You can gain talents like "Angel of Death", "Bloodthirsty", "Relentless", etc.

The fiction definitely implies your character can be a very a tough fellow, but due to the mechanics with how willpower and Panic works, you'll be freaking out, puking, getting hysterical blindness, self-mutilating, and randomly hitting allies quite often, even in not particularly dangerous situations. During a fight we had, one of the strongest and most tough characters died because he tried to move twice in one turn, panicked, had a heart attack, and got instantly killed.

For D&D itself, in 5e you can have something like a Barbarian, a raging killing machine that is very easily scared due to likely low wisdom and no save proficiency, they'll be getting frightened far more often than pretty much every other class, since the others at least usually get proficiency, some way to boost saves, or are less MAD and can grab a resilient feat/raise wisdom.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Edit: And this, incidentally, was the meaning behind Healing Surges and the like. There's only so far you can push yourself, so much you can draw from the well of resilience and determination etc. Once that well is dry, combat is incredibly dangerous and you should really stop. Combat becomes VERY lethal in 4e if you have to fight while out of surges.

And it can be fun. A couple of the more fun fights I've had have been when the party was exhausted and on different occasions my invoker and my wizard ended up as the party's de facto tanks because our normal front line was out of surges. They could still hit and hit hard but they weer too tired to react fast enough to protect themselves. (It's one reason I really dislike the healing-surge-sharing ritual as it removes tension).

 

[Lanefan]

(Although, and perhaps contra @Hussar, I suspect a lot of those APs that get sold are also read rather than played.)

Guilty as charged, y'r honour.

I've got various AP books around here and have yet to run any of them, other than swiping certain self-contained bits to use as parts (or in one case all) of other adventures.

But I've read them all through, if only so I could see what was there for me to mine from them.

 

[Hussar]

Guilty as charged, y'r honour.

I've got various AP books around here and have yet to run any of them, other than swiping certain self-contained bits to use as parts (or in one case all) of other adventures.

But I've read them all through, if only so I could see what was there for me to mine from them.

But do you think this is typical?

I’m thinking not.

The continued, sustained popularity of these modules seems to point to the notion that they are actually getting played. The hundreds of Dms Guild add ons for them as well. The fact that there are Patreons devoted to supporting aps seems to point in the direction that they are actually being played.

See part of my attitude is formed from years of being told that what I wanted wasn’t really even part of DnD. 4e wasn’t really DnD because it lacked lore. Real Dms don’t use modules. Modules are crap. So on and so forth.

And that was the refrain for decades.

So yeah I’m not going to pretend to be sad that things have reversed. Why would I?

 

[Voadam]

Paizo’s primary products are adventure paths. They are renowned for them. Doing fantastically well for over a decade.

I agree it is a big deal for them. Right now they are up to 150 adventure path individual modules. It is not all they put out, but it is a big deal for them.

So yeah. I’m going to stand by what I said. The majority of players don’t care and don’t want setting books.

I don't think Paizo is supporting evidence of that at all. There are currently 103 Campaign Setting Sourcebooks for pathfinder. Golarion and its lore is popular and an important part of Paizo. Every Paizo adventure path module has a whole big section specifically devoted to expanding lore.

 

[Lanefan]

But do you think this is typical?

Not sure about typical, but I suspect it's a more common thing than you're giving it credit for.

The continued, sustained popularity of these modules seems to point to the notion that they are actually getting played. The hundreds of Dms Guild add ons for them as well. The fact that there are Patreons devoted to supporting aps seems to point in the direction that they are actually being played.

I'm sure they are, but not in the same numbers they're being purchased. A DM friend who is running 5e has several hardcover APs but has only run one of them (currently ongoing).

See part of my attitude is formed from years of being told that what I wanted wasn’t really even part of DnD. 4e wasn’t really DnD because it lacked lore. Real Dms don’t use modules. Modules are crap. So on and so forth.

There's enough examples of badly-done modules out there to make it easy to see how someone might arrive at "modules are crap", so I'll cutthat one some slack even if I don't (usually) agree with it.

As for "real DMs don't use modules", yeah, no. A real DM uses anything she can get her grubby little mitts on that'll help her run the game.

What I don't like (though I may be slowly losing this war) is the single-AP-as-the-whole-campaign model, which I suspect is driven mostly by marketers rather than actual broad-based player/DM demands or desires.

 

[Hussar]

I agree it is a big deal for them. Right now they are up to 150 adventure path individual modules. It is not all they put out, but it is a big deal for them.

I don't think Paizo is supporting evidence of that at all. There are currently 103 Campaign Setting Sourcebooks for pathfinder. Golarion and its lore is popular and an important part of Paizo. Every Paizo adventure path module has a whole big section specifically devoted to expanding lore.

Except that the primary selling point is the Adventure Paths. The Campaign Setting sourcebooks are there, sure, but, again, nicely balanced - 50:50. And, remember, you get those sourcebooks when you subscribe to the Adventure Path. I'm not sure you can get them on their own. They weren't marketed that way. But, the point is, it's still 50:50. Unlike the pre-5e days when it was about 90% sourcebooks and player option books and about 10% adventures.

And, again, even today from WotC, it's about 2:1 Adventures to Sourcebooks/Players Books. Sure, it's weighted on the AP's, but, it's not like there's nothing for the lore/player books folks. Every year, there's at least one source/lore book and always has been.

I mean look at this year:

Keys from the Golden Vault - Adventure Path
Bigsby Presents Giants - Source book
Phandelver and Below - Adventure Path
Planescape - Source book
Book of Many Things - Source book (probably player facing)

So, it's pretty balanced 50:50. I'm not seeing how this is ignoring anyone.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But do you think this is typical?

I’m thinking not.

The continued, sustained popularity of these modules seems to point to the notion that they are actually getting played. The hundreds of Dms Guild add ons for them as well. The fact that there are Patreons devoted to supporting aps seems to point in the direction that they are actually being played.

See part of my attitude is formed from years of being told that what I wanted wasn’t really even part of DnD. 4e wasn’t really DnD because it lacked lore. Real Dms don’t use modules. Modules are crap. So on and so forth.

And that was the refrain for decades.

So yeah I’m not going to pretend to be sad that things have reversed. Why would I?

I'm not asking you to be sad. I'm asking for you to not be explicitly happy about the misfortune of others.

Yeah, I'm still irritated about that.