When to roll initiative?

[Vurt]

I have my players roll for initiative whenever one side attempts a hostile act. Trying to ready a weapon doesn't count. As far as I'm concerned, that's just "posturing" for effect.

Nail's gunfighters-at-high-noon analogy is right on the money.

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Liquidsabre]

Nail's gunfighters-at-high-noon analogy is right on the money.

Yea but what do you do when the bad guy henchman on the roof of the saloon already began an agressive action rounds before when he laid the sight of his rifle on the good guy and readied an action to shoot the good guy if he started to reach for it?

It's kind of hard to relegate this henchman to an initiative roll with the other two when he's got the rifle up to his chin and is sighting down the barrel of the rifle and just needs to squeeze the trigger when he sees the slightest bit of movement from the soon-to-be-shot-at good guy. It's just not that cut and dry.

Edit - Btw, when I handle his sort of situation I have the henchman roll initiative when he decides to prepare an aggressive action. Henchman readies an action to shoot the good-guy if he draws. Gunfighters roll for initiative when one or both decide to undertake an aggressive action. Good-guy wins initiative over the bad-guy and draws...a shot is fired from above the saloon and kicks a blast of dust near his feet, the good-guy turns upwards and shots the henchman on the roof and then dives to the side as the bad-guy draws and shoots...

 

[Henry]

For our games, I usually make it easy for my players, and make it obvious if a group is intending violence or not. If a group is drawing weapons, but not moving to attack, or if they're parleying, etc. Then we don't roll yet. If someone draws a weapon, and if a player reacts violently, then init is rolled. But until one side makes an overt action to attack, or to move into a stategically advantageous position, then no die is cast.

 

[Celebrim]

Yea but what do you do when the bad guy henchman on the roof of the saloon already began an agressive action rounds before when he laid the sight of his rifle on the good guy and readied an action to shoot the good guy if he started to reach for it?

It's kind of hard to relegate this henchman to an initiative roll with the other two when he's got the rifle up to his chin and is sighting down the barrel of the rifle and just needs to squeeze the trigger when he sees the slightest bit of movement from the soon-to-be-shot-at good guy. It's just not that cut and dry.

Edit - Btw, when I handle his sort of situation I have the henchman roll initiative when he decides to prepare an aggressive action. Henchman readies an action to shoot the good-guy if he draws. Gunfighters roll for initiative when one or both decide to undertake an aggressive action. Good-guy wins initiative over the bad-guy and draws...a shot is fired from above the saloon and kicks a blast of dust near his feet, the good-guy turns upwards and shots the henchman on the roof and then dives to the side as the bad-guy draws and shoots...

I should note that in this scenario, the bad guy can spend the first post initiative round taking a Focus action, essentially letting him take 20 on the initiative check. Thereafter he can have a readied action that will beat just about anything the good guys do, AND he's entitled to a suprise round if he attacks first because the good guys don't know that he's there.

 

[Liquidsabre]

I should note that in this scenario, the bad guy can spend the first post initiative round taking a Focus action, essentially letting him take 20 on the initiative check. Thereafter he can have a readied action that will beat just about anything the good guys do, AND he's entitled to a suprise round if he attacks first because the good guys don't know that he's there.

Exactly my point! Where do you draw the line? It's not at all cut and dry as all that.

Btw, the Refocus action no longer exists in 3.5. Instead though they can now just delay until they are at the top of the initiative order in the next round IIRC.

 

[Nail]

Exactly my point! Where do you draw the line? It's not at all cut and dry as all that..

Sure it is.

If the minion sniper is on top of a building, he's hiding. Roll his check. Then have the PCs roll their Spot checks. So far we are still out of initiative.

Those that make the opposed spot checks get to respond. If the Hiding-Bad-Guy-Minion-On-The-Roof is getting his crossbow/rifle/BFG ready, it's initaive time. Only those that spotted the HBGMOTR get to roll (along with the HBGMOTR, obviously).

If the HBGMOTR is not doing something hostile, I allow the PCs to respond as they see fit, outside of initiative.....until they start combat with a hostile move, etc.

 

[Celebrim]

Exactly my point! Where do you draw the line? It's not at all cut and dry as all that.

Actually, it is, it's just that when you have a sniper on the roof, you have a very very complicated situation.

Sniper on the roof does a hide check (with a pretty good circumstantial bonus) vs. the PC's spot check (who have a pretty good penalty due to distance).

PC's that win know that the sniper is there.

Sniper on the roof now does a spot check (with a pretty good penalty due to distance) vs. the PC's hide check (which may have been a 'assume the character has taken 0' situation if the PC's aren't being cautious) and otherwise adjusted for reality.
For example, it might be possible that the sniper who is supposed to be watching a courtyard doesn't immediately notice that anyone has entered it (he's distracted, daydreaming, etc.) but if he notices at least one member of the party, then he sees everyone that's also in the courtyard standing next to that character in his LOS as well (even if they themselves would have otherwise escaped notice). Note that I wouldn't assume that this is true if instead we were talking about a brush filled glade at night where everyone had some degree of concealment and/or cover.

If the sniper wins, he knows that the characters (that he sees) are there.

Now, already you have a situation. Either side that is aware of the other one can now call for an initiative check, indicating that they want to immediately take some combat related action (draw a weapon, duck for cover, hustle somewhere, take a snap shot). For either side that is not aware, this is a suprise round and they don't get initiative numbers until the following round. For everyone else, you get partial actions in initiative order.

But it can get even more complicated. Suppose neither side wants to take an immediate combat related actions. Effectively both sides have held their move to the next turn. The PC's are talking with an NPC; the sniper is waiting to see what happens. Why does this work? Because while taking a ready action changes you initiative, but doesn't change your initiative order, so we can effectively ignore it if we want, and I usually do.

OK, so Sniper on the roof does a sense motive check (with a penalty due to distance) opposed by the bluff checks of every character that is aware of him. If he wins, he's aware that he's been made, and hense that at least some of the targets are no longer flatfooted and further that he has lost his chance at a free surprise round.

If he becomes aware that he's made, PC's make sense motive checks (with a penalty due to distance) opposed by the bluff check of the sniper. If the PC's win, they are aware that the sniper is aware that he's been made, and hense that they've lost any chance of surprising him.

Now we potentially have 3 groups. PC's aware the sniper and aware that the sniper is aware that they know he is thier (if he is). PC's aware of the sniper, but not aware that he is (or is not) aware of them. And the sniper, who at this time may or may not see the PC's and may or may not be aware that they see him even if he does. Again, any aware group can ask for any initiative check, and all aware groups from the previous round can now take 20 if they didn't otherwise act in the previous round. Note that this means that anyone that suspects that thier reflexes are poor should have taken immediate action in the previous round, as initiative order of most non-surprised characters is now going to be non-random. Still unaware groups still treat this as a surprise round, plus are very likely to lose initiative when the events suddenly start going down.

Meanwhile, sniper on the roof could if he gets a surprise round, attempt to rehide (at a -20 penalty) leaving everyone unaware still unaware. If none of the PC's are aware, I still probably wouldn't bother with an initiative roll, until after the sniper tried again and after someone spotted him.

The point is, you can hold initiative rolls until well into the encounter provided no one immediately wants to do something that would effect the combat. The moment any combat related interaction directly or indirectly is going to occur, you have to start dealing with initiative.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Actually, it is, it's just that when you have a sniper on the roof, you have a very very complicated situation.

Exactly, thanks!

 

[Thanee]

Yea but what do you do when the bad guy henchman on the roof of the saloon already began an agressive action rounds before when he laid the sight of his rifle on the good guy and readied an action to shoot the good guy if he started to reach for it?

You cannot ready an action outside combat.

Either the sniper is not spotted --> Surprise Round once he decides to shoot, then Initiative
Or the sniper is spotted --> Initiative (or Surprise Round with those who saw him, and himself)

Bye
Thanee

 

[Liquidsabre]

You cannot ready an action outside combat.

Either the sniper is not spotted --> Surprise Round once he decides to shoot, then Initiative
Or the sniper is spotted --> Initiative (or Surprise Round with those who saw him, and himself)

Right, no readied actions outside of combat. PHB p. 137 (The Surprise Round): "Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative."

Either way the sniper rolls inititative and takes their surprise round, in this case, readying an action. Or firing if one of the PCs spotted him and decides to attack I suppose.