When to use the "special" attacks?

[EntropyDecay]

Hi everyone,

how do I get my players to use some of the "special" attack options of D&D such as Tripping, Grappling, Attacking held objects,...? Most fights are resolved in nearly the same way every time:
1. If Player = spellcaster: Cast highest damage spell available.
If Player = Fighter: Move to opponent + Hit him with weapon.
2. Pray that opponent doesn't use any special attacks that
require you to roll a saving throw or does high damage.
3. Repeat until opponents flee, are dead, surrender... or party
is annihilated.

The group spellcasters (wizard lvl 6 & druid lvl 5) fill all their spell slots with damage dealers of one type (e.g. all 2nd level slots with flaming sphere) and never any group support spells. Totally ignoring the fact that some enemies they met were immune to the damage type and rendered them nearly useless in the battle (Fire immunity versus flaming sphere and fireball ).

The frontline fighters of the group (dwarf lvl 7, psychic warrior lvl 7 & ranger lvl 6) close the distance to the enemy and start whacking them with their blades often forgetting simple combat maneuvers such as flanking or aiding another to higher their chances against high AC opponents. Side note: The first person charging the enemy is usually our ranger (second lowest group AC) played by a girl who is a total Aragorn fanatic even carrying Viggo Mortensens picture in her purse (NO, she is not 14 but 22). I think I don't need to explain that the rest of the party is very annoyed about that fact that one person uses about fifty percent of their healing resources...

The whole group is sometimes totally surprised when NPCs start to use the different combat options and clever tactics. They think that grappling is just good when you are a creature of bigger size than your enemy and special attack options are just a waste of time especially when you have just one attack per round. Attacks that draw an AoO are NEVER used (because "they favor your enemy..."). And so on, and so on,...

My questions are:
- How do I get my group to fight more as a team and not as five lone heroes surprisingly in the same location? (Gladiatorial Matches perhaps? Dragon & Dungeon have something about that in their current issues...)
- What is your opinion of the different attack options? When do you use them? Are they worth using when you have only one attack per round? Are they only worth it when you start to higher your chances by taking feats?

A bit puzzled,
Entropy

PS: Since this is my first post to this board: "Big Hello" to all of you.

 

[grep]

Try to invent situations where they /have/ to work as a team, or use special tactics to survive.

Right off the top of my head, if you want them to use trip attacks, you could have them fighting on a narrow beam on top of a pool of acid or something, where being tripped would mean certain death.

Another use for trip would be to get a high AC creature on it's rear end so you can get some much needed bonuses to your attack roll against it.

Don't forget that a lot of these special attacks are hard to pull off, and are only useful in certain situations. Unless you are really good at tripping, it would be more useful to just attack.

As for working as a team, the same applies: invent situations where they have to, but when it comes down to it, if they don't want to work as a team, then you can't make them.

Oh, and if normal combat won't motivate them into working as a team, I don't see how gladitorial combat would.

 

[Gaiden]

The solution is simple. Have your NPCs continue to use such tactics as you have been. Over time, they will begin to see that those tactics are the more strategic method and work better than hack, slash, and burn. If the really still don't learn...kill them.

 

[DM with a vengence]

Disarm is especially good if you have someone on the sidelines ready to drop in and steal the sword. Imagine the look on your fighter's face as he loses his +3 Holy Longsword of Nifty Keenness to the Archpriest of Hextor and then a bodyguard dives in and grabs it and starts running. I think S&F has some rules on unarmed and double-handed disarms which may also be useful.

A tripped character has to spend a round getting back up, so tripping, especially with Knockback and Improved Trip can steal most of your opponent's actions. Use a weapon that gives a bonus to trips, and carry a bunch on them. Whenever you lose a trip, grab a new one with Quickdraw and keep attacking.

For grappling, the best annoying tactic is a Monk in an Antimagic Field. His Wizard boss casts AMF into an Ioun Stone of Spell Storing, then passses it to the Monk, who uses it, passes it back, and then does a tumbling charge through their front ranks to grab ahold of the Wizard or Cleric.

For a more movement oriented combat. Get a bunch of cavalry, your usual Spirited Charges with heavy lances and a larger group of mounted archers. Place the party in the middle of a maze made by large pillars (much like city block). As long as the archers have the midpoint of their move within Line of Sight of your PCs, they can take a full attack action. If the PCs split up if pursuit of the archers, then the knights descend on the smaller group. This can be especially evil if the riders are quarterbacked by a invisible, flying wizard communicating through the message spell.
-- This idea is so evil, that all the windows shattered from my maniacal laughter when I thought of it

 

[Petrosian]

Judging by actual in game experience from my current game...

for a monk...

you should primarily try trip attacks against mage like characters with decent dex scores, crappy fort saves and low to moderate ACs.

you should primarily use standard attacks and stunning fists against heavily plated armored fighters with incredible fort saves and high Acs.

following either of these choices, you should immediately gripe and moan about how lousy the monk is in combat.

 

[reapersaurus]

Hi everyone,

how do I get my players to use some of the "special" attack options of D&D such as Tripping, Grappling, Attacking held objects,...?

Well, for just this question, the answer is:

it's tough to get them to do those attacks because frankly, they are universally suboptimal compared to a normal attack UNLESS the player specializes their entire character around it, OR the environment causes them to be good (Bull Rushing someone who's standing next to a cliff).

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Reapersaurus makes a good point. Really, if a player doesn't have Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, or Improved Bull Rush, it's hazardous to use these techniques. This is especially true at lower to mid levels, when you still aren't sure your first attack will connect (and you thus open yourself up to the free counter-move.) At higher levels it gets better, because generally your first attack (as a fighter-type) is going to connect.

As far as working as a team, I think the best way is to do what was already mentioned by Gaiden. Keep having your NPCs work together. Invent an NPC adventuring party, and have the BBEG hire them to thwart the heroes. Then run them using hand signals for pre-designed maneuvers, flanking, moving into advantageous positions, using buff spells, etc. The players'll pick up on it after a few encounters with these guys.

If even after that they don't think tactically, then they probably don't want to, and there's nothing wrong with that either.

 

[Darklone]

Had shipcombat this saturday... The pirate captain with Improved Bull Rush ruled the day by knocking the two best fighters from the ship or into the storage room. Sadly he was inhibited with Doom (bad spell!), this severely inhibits a TWF fighter...

Disarm is evil if you have a bard with whip and True Strike who "prepares" the player characters for his friends.

Improved Trip... had an ogre who bashed the party BADLY with it. Combined with Combat Reflexes and a low damage potential at ranged combat by the party, he nearly caused a TPK.

Use some guys with reach weapons and Disarm ... the players will probably learn.

 

[EntropyDecay]

Thanks for your replies so far...

Oh, and if normal combat won't motivate them into working as a team, I don't see how gladitorial combat would.

My idea is to put them into a match where they have to fight another group of heroes that are working as a team and use their abilities in the best way possible. Advantages to a normal fight:
- Party can study their enemy before the match and develop a countertactic (or at least some kind of tactic)
- Possibility to use every dirty combat trick and tactic without having to worry of a total party kill (Arena clerics could raise them later)
- Best of all: Crowd laughs when players hit the ground, NPCs laugh at their "tactics",... until the Players get frustrated and want revenge in the ring against the other gladior teams (only achievable with them working as a team).

Really, if a player doesn't have Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, or Improved Bull Rush, it's hazardous to use these techniques.

I always thought that there are situations in which you could use some of the techniques effectively without these feats.
Example:
Party versus single opponent with multiple attacks and high hp:
- Try flanking the opponent, strongest fighter trips him and denies him his multiple attacks (easier when buffed by mage), part of group gains +6 to hit (+2 flanking, +4 opponent on ground), repeat if necessary (perhaps ready an action to trip enemy when he stands up, rogues can sneak attack,...)
- Tactic of my group: Charge him, forget about flanking and teamwork, moan when enemy unleashes his full attack, curse enemies high hitpoints and their bad luck with dice.

Entropy

 

[Samhain California]

using demons and devils that have damage reduction and immunity to energy types should incurr some thoughful thinking.

if you characters are supctible to being scried, scry them to see waht the wizards are studying. or what the clerics are [raying for (or discussing what they have prayed for)

and throw at them fights with people that have prot elements X and the lesser protections to make them change tactics (esp if they keep reusing tactics over and over)

you also mmight want to try to impress them with certain tactics, such as a monk built to grapple/slay spellcasters, rogue/gladiators built to bluff sneak attack etc

--j