Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Maybe D&D shouldn't have abilities at all anymore. They no longer serve a non-mechanical purpose, so maybe they should just be built into the math.
D&D 5E (2014) Where's the Dump?
- Thread starter DND_Reborn
- Start date
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
Many people have argued this, but for D&D it never seems to gain any ground.
Yeah, there is only (maybe) a few times where the actual scores serve a purpose.
So, are you advocating for only the modifiers, or no abilities at all? It sounds like no abilities at all. The only issue I would have with that is you would lose some of the appeal of things like a smart fighter or strong wizard, etc.
If you removed them, how would you build them into the math without making it too generic??
I completely agree; I've thought for years that ability scores were a terrible mechanic. Unfortunately, they are at the very heart of the game's traditions, and I'm quite certain that will never change.
IMO, the best we can hope for is that Wizards slowly excises ability scores from the game's core mechanics, isolating them into a set of stand-alone functions (Strength determines carrying capacity, Intelligence gives you extra languages, etc.) and maybe modifiers for untrained skill checks.
Unless a wizard, Eldritch Knight, or Arcana trickster, a 14 is the highest I've seen. Only they ever use it as an attack/save modifier and there's only a handful of Int saves in the game. While Int skills can be important, it's not worth having a high modifier for this purpose. Our group started giving out extra languages and tools for having a higher mod, and as a DM I even reduce them with a penalty.
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
I wonder if we will ever see the removal of dump stats by having 10 be the minimum ability score for PCs?
The more I think about it, if you did remove CON from HP and DEX from AC, what abilities would each class really need? Most at that point boil down to just one or maybe two...
Fighters? STR or DEX, then DEX or STR, and maybe INT for EK.
Clerics? WIS, then maybe STR or DEX.
Rogues? DEX, then INT and WIS for skills, maybe STR, depending on build type.
Wizards? INT, then ??? whatever you want really.
Barbarians? STR, then CON or maybe DEX.
Bards? CHA, then DEX probably.
Druids? WIS, then ??? whatever you want really.
Monks? WIS or DEX, then the other.
Paladins? CHA or STR, then the other, maybe DEX?
Sorcerers? CHA, then ??? whatever you want really.
Warlocks? CHA, then ??? whatever you want really.
So, what if instead of having all six scores, you just had something like one "great" and two "good" scores? All the rest are basically average, without benefiting or hindering the PC. The samples above would all want a great in their first choice, then have a couple goods to round out your other character.
Perhaps offer an option to accept a "weakness" in a score, to turn a good score into another great?? (Not something I would do, but for players who want something to play off of...).
The more I think about it, if you did remove CON from HP and DEX from AC, what abilities would each class really need? Most at that point boil down to just one or maybe two...
Fighters? STR or DEX, then DEX or STR, and maybe INT for EK.
Clerics? WIS, then maybe STR or DEX.
Rogues? DEX, then INT and WIS for skills, maybe STR, depending on build type.
Wizards? INT, then ??? whatever you want really.
Barbarians? STR, then CON or maybe DEX.
Bards? CHA, then DEX probably.
Druids? WIS, then ??? whatever you want really.
Monks? WIS or DEX, then the other.
Paladins? CHA or STR, then the other, maybe DEX?
Sorcerers? CHA, then ??? whatever you want really.
Warlocks? CHA, then ??? whatever you want really.
So, what if instead of having all six scores, you just had something like one "great" and two "good" scores? All the rest are basically average, without benefiting or hindering the PC. The samples above would all want a great in their first choice, then have a couple goods to round out your other character.
Perhaps offer an option to accept a "weakness" in a score, to turn a good score into another great?? (Not something I would do, but for players who want something to play off of...).
Horwath
Legend
problem with dumping is that abilities do not contribute to lots of stuff, well most of them.
You use heavy armor? 8 DEX no problem
You use anything except heavy armor? 8 STR unless barbarian
You are not wizard or artificer? 8 INT
You are not bard, paladin, sorcerer, warlock? 8 CHA
only CON and somewhat WIS are protected from carefree dumping as WIS is most important save with very important skills and CON gives 2nd most important save and HPs
I never saw in 5e a character with less than 12 CON and 10 WIS and most have 14 CON and 12 WIS minimum.
You use heavy armor? 8 DEX no problem
You use anything except heavy armor? 8 STR unless barbarian
You are not wizard or artificer? 8 INT
You are not bard, paladin, sorcerer, warlock? 8 CHA
only CON and somewhat WIS are protected from carefree dumping as WIS is most important save with very important skills and CON gives 2nd most important save and HPs
I never saw in 5e a character with less than 12 CON and 10 WIS and most have 14 CON and 12 WIS minimum.
Horwath
Legend
TwoSix
Everyone's literal second-favorite poster
Since ability scores are never going away, I'd rather see classes lean into them MORE by not having simply one main stat. Give each class important features that scale off at least two, or ideally three, stats.
There are 20 combinations of 3 stats, I'm trying to think of a class concept that can fit each combination.
STR/DEX/CON - Fighter
STR/CON/CHA - Paladin
Horwath
Legend
been saying that for 10 years at least
