D&D 5E (2014) Where's the Dump?

[DND_Reborn]

Since ability scores are never going away, I'd rather see classes lean into them MORE by not having simply one main stat. Give each class important features that scale off at least two, or ideally three, stats.

That is why I was focusing on a great and two good's -- three scores which would all be important to a class.

There are 20 combinations of 3 stats, I'm trying to think of a class concept that can fit each combination.

STR/DEX/CON - Fighter
STR/CON/CHA - Paladin

These are the prerequisite combos for the 5E mod we've been developing / using for nearly a year:

I'd have to check the homebrew to ensure this is the current model, but it looks right. Of course, we moved Barbarians, Sorcerers, and Warlocks to subclasses, so they aren't present in the table above. It might serve as a starting point for you.

 

[TwoSix]

That is why I was focusing on a great and two good's -- three scores which would all be important to a class.

Yea, makes sense. I think ideally there would simply be 3 "greats", and try to move away from a class having a single "prime requisite".

View attachment 150150
I'd have to check the homebrew to ensure this is the current model, but it looks right. Of course, we moved Barbarians, Sorcerers, and Warlocks to subclasses, so they aren't present in the table above. It might serve as a starting point for you.

Looks good. What does the color coding mean, if I may ask?

 

[jmartkdr2]

I hate dump stats, but with point buy they're almost unavoidable on certain classes.

Well, presumably something's gotta be your lowest number. Unless they're all the same number.

The annoyance is that so many players tend to pick the same thing most of the time.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Yea, makes sense. I think ideally there would simply be 3 "greats", and try to move away from a class having a single "prime requisite".

For me I would want to keep the distinction so a Fighter with Great STR, Good DEX, Good CON would feel different from a Good STR, Great DEX, Good CON; as opposed to all fighters being Great STR, Great DEX, Great CON.

Looks good. What does the color coding mean, if I may ask?

Thanks. IIRC, it had something to do with trying to keep each ability represented about the same number of times. I don't recall, honestly, it was nearly a year ago LOL.

Ideally, each ability would be used 6 times.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Many people have argued this, but for D&D it never seems to gain any ground.


Yeah, there is only (maybe) a few times where the actual scores serve a purpose.

So, are you advocating for only the modifiers, or no abilities at all? It sounds like no abilities at all. The only issue I would have with that is you would lose some of the appeal of things like a smart fighter or strong wizard, etc.

If you removed them, how would you build them into the math without making it too generic??

Short short answer: via skills. A wizard with athletics proficiency is probably also physically strong. A fighter with a knowledge skill or two is clearly educated (at least)

There's some wonkiness around blending that into class features (ie we do want smart-fighter maneuvers) which would now need to be skill-based, but that's not much harder than the current system.

It does make highly specialized characters harder to portray (ie the cleric who knows about religion but nothing else), but those always felt to me less of a narrative/character choice and more of a way to explain a weird game result.

 

[Horwath]

Well, presumably something's gotta be your lowest number. Unless they're all the same number.

The annoyance is that so many players tend to pick the same thing most of the time.

problem is that most of the time 8 or 18 int or cha does little for the PC

 

[TwoSix]

For me I would want to keep the distinction so a Fighter with Great STR, Good DEX, Good CON would feel different from a Good STR, Great DEX, Good CON; as opposed to all fighters being Great STR, Great DEX, Great CON.

Oh, definitely. Ideally, a 16 Str, 10 Dex, 14 Con fighter is equally compelling as a 10 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con fighter. And I mean compelling for me as an optimizer, not compelling in the "Oh, I can make an interesting character with these terrible stats" way.

Thanks. IIRC, it had something to do with trying to keep each ability represented about the same number of times. I don't recall, honestly, it was nearly a year ago LOL.

Ideally, each ability would be used 6 times.

If you had each two-stat combination represented, that would be 15 classes, with each stat present in 5 classes. That's not bad.

 

[Stormonu]

Intelligence.

Oh, wait. You meant characters, not players...

Used to be Charisma, but with Charisma casters in play, I see far more people using Intelligence as a dump stat, with a lot of "use what I know/have learned about the game", instead of the character.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Short short answer: via skills. A wizard with athletics proficiency is probably also physically strong. A fighter with a knowledge skill or two is clearly educated (at least)

This reminds me of an argument I made a while back:

You are not good at Athletics because you have a high Strength, you have a high Strength because you are good at Athletics.
You do not study Arcana because you are smart, you are smarter because your study Arcana.
Etc.

The idea was you gain +1 ability modifier for proficiency in every skill linked to the ability. It works nicely for INT and WIS because they have 5 skills each, but obviously STR is severely lacking and CON has none. So, unless I wanted to make a total of 30+ skills instead of 18, it doesn't work. Still, I always liked the idea.

Aligning that to your short answer it almost fits perfectly. If your Wizard has proficiency in Athletics, you get a +1 modifier for Strength and add it to all other Strength checks (including Athletics, of course).

 

[CleverNickName]

This reminds me of an argument I made a while back:

You are not good at Athletics because you have a high Strength, you have a high Strength because you are good at Athletics.
You do not study Arcana because you are smart, you are smarter because your study Arcana.
Etc.

The idea was you gain +1 ability modifier for proficiency in every skill linked to the ability. It works nicely for INT and WIS because they have 5 skills each, but obviously STR is severely lacking and CON has none. So, unless I wanted to make a total of 30+ skills instead of 18, it doesn't work. Still, I always liked the idea.

Aligning that to your short answer it almost fits perfectly. If your Wizard has proficiency in Athletics, you get a +1 modifier for Strength and add it to all other Strength checks (including Athletics, of course).

This is my argument for why ASI's should be tied to Background, and not Race.