Which Class or classes do you feel are unbalanced-too powerful?

[glass]

I voted cleric.

I was going to vote druid too, but in the end I decided there were three 'tiers' of power: clerics, then druids, then everyone else. So I voted for clerics as overpowered, druids not at all, and everyone else as underpowered in the other poll.

Why clerics? Well, clerics get full armour use, reasonable hp and bab, and three other abilities (T/CU, domain powers), and full spellcasting (in armour) including extra spell slots per day and all the best (self)buffs.


glass.

 

[IamIan]

And amazing stats, apparently......

even with several points lower ... what about starting with 16 instead of 18... the rest of the bonuses are easy to get by lv 20...the monk wins...

[QUOTEMerlion]Eh...maybe. The Monk is one of the only classes that has the defenses to get past a Clerics offensive and immobilization spells. However all the Cleric has to do is cast Divine Power and beat the crud out of the Monk.[/QUOTE]

sorry Devine Power won't save the cleric
It gives Cleric base attack same as fighter... +6 Str ( but same thing as belt +6 ) at most +20 Temp HP... hardly save you....

especially becuase:
as a Lv4 spell x Caster Lv 8 x 2,000 use activated = 64,000
hardly expensive for lv 20 and cheeper than transformation's 144,000 actually.
So the Monk can have the same thing by that level easy.

even if monk didn't have it and why not??

The monk still has 2 more attacks at best base attack... still does more damage per round.... still has better saves... still is far better at hiding..... yeagh go cast something... provokes attack of opertunity make concentration check to cast spell that won't work on me while I beat the Holy Sipirt out of you... ... disarm you're now seriously underpowered offensively... maybe I'll grapple you which as a touch attack ignores all that fancy armor and shields... or maybe I will just use spring attack from 60 feet away attack hit and do damage... spring back 60 feet and taunt you .... you try to close distance but are never fast enough to do so... your spells have a VERY low chance of working on the monk by Lv 20 ... plus the great amount of distance 600+Feet per round can cover or give... Monk can suddenly be out of range and then in your face.

mid level... the cleric has a chance... by Lv 20 bet on the monk anyday and 10x on Sunday Day of rest my ass.

Cleric can be great for support... but if 2 clerics are there than to be fair lets have 2 monks.. and it still boils down to 1 on 1.

 

[Nail]

even with several points lower ... what about starting with 16 instead of 18... the rest of the bonuses are easy to get by lv 20...the monk wins....

Feh.

So...what's the Str of this monk of yours with a Dex 16, Wis 16? How's his Con? Etc.

 

[IamIan]

Feh.
So...what's the Str of this monk of yours with a Dex 16, Wis 16? How's his Con? Etc.

What are the Fighters???

If you go by the DM Guide for Buying Attribute Points ... It doesn't Matter....

By Lv20 The Monk can have a 64,000 GP Devine Power Belt to Give him the Same +6 as Belt of Giant Strength +Extra Temporary HP... and Get his Base Attack up to Equal the Fighter... Magic Item Can Further Increase the Fighter's Base Attack... But the Monk With the Same Base Attack has 2 Extra Attacks at that Best Base Attack Bonus... and the Monk of Lv 20 can also get +5 Weapon bonus to his unarmed attacks.

His Hands do More Damage than any One Handed Weapon Can Do and with his increased number of Attacks he will do more Damage per round than any 2 handed weapon.

This all Ignores the fact that the Fighter would never even get a Chance... as the 120 Speed Monk can just Spring Attack Him from 60 feet away and be 60 feet away again after the Attack... The Fighter Has to Make a Charge Attack to get in Range... If he takes the Right Feats he can do this without provoking attack of opertunity.... otherwise it is a death sentance...

This also Ignores that the Monk is Far Better Grappler Than the Fighter is and Grappleing is a Touch Attack which will ignore the Fighter's Armor and Shield , Natural AC Bonuses... making the fighter very easy to grapple and hit and then the monk is better in that range... Fighter looses....

Or if the Monk Disarms the Fighter... The Fighter is in trouble .. unless he can also afford a couple spare +5 Weapons... which is unlikely given the money he already spent to compete with the monk.

Plus the Monks Extra Healling 40HP compensates for Slightly Higher +20 HP of the Fighter.

The Fighter would have to Spend more on DR that the Monk Gets for Free.

In short the Fighter gets at best a Dex of +3 and Armor and Shields... Armor and Shield are negated by touch attack grapple... Monk Gets Dex anything & Wis anything and +4 AC doesn't loose them against touch attacks... Monk Has at this point same to Hit as Fighter... but more attacks... Monk gets more self healing at 40 HP than the Fighter gets extra HP at 20.... Monk is faster... Etc...etc...

 

[Storyteller01]

I chose druid. At 16th level, they have wild shape (elemental), one heck of a pet, (Tyranosaurus being one option), AND the ability to summon a varitable army of cannon fodder without actually sacrificing much. With the elemental wildshape they gain immunity to a given energy type without casting a spell. This gets nasty if the druid has gone their home work (so the fire-loving sorcerer meteorswarming the summons still leaves you with an unhurt fire elemental).

Sure, they have to sacrifice a spell of equivalent level to summon creatures, but to do the same a wizard or cleric must memorize those spells (limiting or negating their overall spell choice for the day) and the sorcerer loses that spell known.

Even with Protection spells, the critters become obstacles (Player: I cast fireball!! DM: Okay. It flys away, hitting the *convenient critter* 15 feet away from you).

Seems to me that the druid can handle more than any other class of equivalent level. Perhaps this is deliberate? Even in a city based environ, a creative druid can accomplish quite a bit. The cleric, while powerful, is still stuck in a given niche (healer and whatever they've been optimized for).

 

[Merlion]

sorry Devine Power won't save the cleric

Well maybe it wont, but Divine Power will. The Monk is not a full blown melee despite the fact that they probably need to be. Once a Cleric casts Divine Power, they have higher attack bonuses, and more hit points than the monk, as well as most likely dealing equal or greater damage between whatever weapon they have and the +6 Str. And the Cleric already has better AC.

my point is, the Monk does have anti-magic defenses which would be useful in fightning a Cleric. Although those defenses are not 100%, and considering some of the things the Cleric has access to, not to mention the sheer number of spell slots, you shouldnt totally discount their magic either, however the big point is even if the Monk survives the first few spells, the Cleric can use a single spell to out melee the Monk once the Monk gets into melee range.

Or the Cleric can simply have used Air Walk to be out of the Monk's reach.


Now yes, the Monk is probably one of the few classes that might stand a chance against a Cleric toe to toe, due to their defenses. However, this thread is not primarily about one on one, one class versus another issues. Its about overall class balance.

And the growing opinion seems to be that the Monk is a little under par, and the Cleric a bit above. And that makes sense...Monks have to rely on melee to contribute much to combat, yet they have only medium BAB, and mediocre AC and HP. The Ranger also has rather mediocre AC and HP, but at least has full BAB.

Likewise the Cleric lacks any real overall weakness (physically durable, good saves, and spells to protect against just about anything), and still has considerable offensive and utility power.

 

[Merlion]

I chose druid. At 16th level, they have wild shape (elemental), one heck of a pet, (Tyranosaurus being one option), AND the ability to summon a varitable army of cannon fodder without actually sacrificing much. With the elemental wildshape they gain immunity to a given energy type without casting a spell. This gets nasty if the druid has gone their home work (so the fire-loving sorcerer meteorswarming the summons still leaves you with an unhurt fire elemental).

Sure, they have to sacrifice a spell of equivalent level to summon creatures, but to do the same a wizard or cleric must memorize those spells (limiting or negating their overall spell choice for the day) and the sorcerer loses that spell known.

Even with Protection spells, the critters become obstacles (Player: I cast fireball!! DM: Okay. It flys away, hitting the *convenient critter* 15 feet away from you).

Seems to me that the druid can handle more than any other class of equivalent level. Perhaps this is deliberate? Even in a city based environ, a creative druid can accomplish quite a bit. The cleric, while powerful, is still stuck in a given niche (healer and whatever they've been optimized for).

I actually did put a vote for Druid as well, although I feel they are only slightly over the top. The main reason I dont feel they are as problematic as the Cleric is because their spell list is really quite limited in many ways, and because they lack the armor proficeincies and they dont have any spells that make them into a fighter.

My main thing with the Druid is that they dont really need a d8 for HPs, nor do the need good Fort saves. Also spells like Freedom of Movement and Death ward should be more generally available.

 

[Thanee]

Dex 18+2Race+5Lvs+5Book+6Item = 36 for +13 to AC
Wis 17+5Book+6Item = 28 for +9 to AC
Class bonus +4 AC

Uhm... that's 29 PB for 2 stats, that's an average of 8.75 for the remaining four ability scores on a typically high-powered 32 PB base.

Also the items there are almost half the wealth of a 20th level character.

The monk will *NEVER* make it to 20th level that way!

LOL

Bye
Thanee

 

[gabrion]

The monk will *NEVER* make it to 20th level that way!

LOL

Bye
Thanee

Maybe if he hides behind the cleric or druid.

 

[Merlion]

The cleric, while powerful, is still stuck in a given niche (healer and whatever they've been optimized for).

This I think is a big crux of the Cleric issue.

I dont feel they really have to be optimized. Now, the player has to know the stuff is there and use it, but most of their power lies in their spells and their inherent class features (hit points, saves, armor profs etc). They dont really need a lot of special feats or anything to be able to do a lot of stuff.