Which Edition for a Megadungeon Campaign? Why?

[J.Quondam]

I guess ultralites aren't really actual "editions" of D&D, but it might be fun to try a megadungeon with one of the Microlite74 variants or something.

Super-fast chargen and rules that fit on a few pages make for a low buy-in cost, so might be easier to sell to some players (and even certain older GMs like me with, umm, crumbling brains). Balance is usually awful and character options are limited, but IMO that's not really a concern in an old school megadungeon, anyway. And it's easy enough to bolt on whatever rules modules you need (eg, "detailed" resource management; no skills vs few skills; spell slots vs spell points; all d6 weapons, etc) for the specific game you want to run.

But if I had to choose an official version of D&D, I'd probably go with Basic.

 

[Randomthoughts]

If you were to run a magadungeon campaign -- by which I mean a campaign focused around the repeated exploration of a single large, complex, dynamic dungeon environment -- which pre-5E version of D&D (or retroclone or simulacrum, I suppose) would you choose for such an endeavor? Why would you choose that version of the game?

So, I've been wanting to get back into playing 4e regularly [edit: this time] on a VTT (Fantasy Grounds in my case) and I've been considering dungeon exploration as an easier "in" so this is beyond a theoretical exercise for me. I'm going to start with a smaller dungeon just to get the kinks out with the eventual goal of a mega-dungeon. So my pick would be a modified 4e b/c I think it offers all the tools I need.

Extended exploration and mapping of a very large simulated environment is a very important element of this kind of campaign. Resource management is a big factor - not necessarily torches & rations, but certainly spell slots & hit points. The game is played at strategic, operational & tactical levels, so a purely tactical RPG like 4e D&D is a very poor fit - and I have tried! Nor is it a story game like Dungeon World.

Yes, this was my experience back in 1e and 2e, so that's what I'm shooting for. A few caveats:

• I did mapping in the day, but I'm not sure if that's necessary for the experience now (since in VTT, it should "auto map"). Personally, I didn't care for it (and I'm sure my players will thank me for it).
• Not mentioned in your post but "shorter combat length" was mentioned elsewhere. While I normally run 4e in a cinematic style focusing on set pieces, for this game, I wouldn't mind if filler combats would take some time since there isn't a "plot" to follow. Exploration and combat can move at their own pace. And this would encourage avoiding monsters as well. However, I would consider using minions (or what I've used in the past - "super minions"), lower level monsters or variants of SCs. Boss battles can remain the awesome set pieces they are.

As to why I would use 4e, @Blue and @Hussar explain it pretty well:

What you are saying isn't incorrect, but it's only half the picture. I've done Undermountain and homebrew megadungeons back in AD&D 2nd days. I understand the strategic aspects - what do we have left, how can we camp safely, do we push, do we take this elevator down to what may be a lot more deadly, etc. You are right on all of that.

But a megadungeon is ultimately a narrower set of experiences vs. a full world. Exploration of a constrained type, puzzles, some RP with different groups, and lots of combat. So you need a system that can make all of those consistently interesting. Of D&D version, 4e normally isn't what I reach for first. But it is the only one to actually provide a complex challenge resolution framework with skill challenges. And combat in a megadungeon is often a larger percentage of play time because of how common it is and the heavy focus on set-piece combat with interesting terrain/hazards and lots of movement/area effects to interact with it is another strength of 4e.

So the issue is not that 4e is the perfect ruleset for it. The issue is that repetitive aspects of a megadungeon is where 4e is good at providing differentiation and therefore keeps things fresh. And therefore fun.

I'd go with 4e as well, primarily because the unit that matters in 4e is the encounter. So, all that stuff about adventuring days and daily resource tracking, which in a mega dungeon doesn't work worth a damn, gets folded into the economy of 4e much more easily. Additionally, because 4e has a much broader range of encounter difficulty (you can generally go +/-5 levels for any given opponent) it's so much easier to fill in the dungeon without having to repeat monster after monster after monster that is pretty much the same as the last monster. An orc brute and an orc skirmisher are totally different monsters in 4e. In other editions, an orc is by and large an orc unless you start down the road of adding class levels and that's far too much work to prep.

As far as random encounters go, that's always been a myth that 4e doesn't do random encounters. That's just not true. Presumably random encounters would have a bunch of sort of "stock" random encounter maps to use, complete with a handful of stock terrain effects, and you're off to the races. It's very, very simple to do and because the math is very clear and open, you can judge the effects pretty quickly.

No, for my money, 4e would be the best system for a mega-dungeon. Just by far the best system for that amount of combat.

I would add:

• I've ran 4e with more strategy in mind. For example, PCs have prepped for an encounter (resolved as a SC) and the results of which gave them advantages in the encounter, including surprise, optimal placement, "advantage" (before that became a thing) or other benefits. I would do that here.
• Healing surges are strategic elements, which are lost on failed SCs rolls or through the disease tracker.
• IIRC, DS had exhaustion mechanics using the Disease Tracker - or I remember seeing that somewhere. I would definitely use this to give it more a Darkest Dungeon vibe.
• I used a "Wounds" system where your total healing surges would be reduced if you fell unconscious or suffered a bad critical (i.e., took more damage than your CON).
• Rituals of course is a strategic element that I would certainly encourage.
• I used the Adventuring Day from 4e DS and I would probably use that here. Or split food from water.
• Everyone using the Encounter/Daily model would make it easier to modify it e.g. Long Rests take 48 hours and only in a Safe Place. I don't mind folks normally refreshing their Encounter powers - instead, I would expand encounters beyond one simple room (e.g., a single encounter could be a section of a dungeon).
• When I ran DS, I used a house rule where you rolled 3d20 for your Death Save immediately (so you could theoretically die immediately) and you could not heal your DS even after a Long Rest.
• Puzzles & traps can be resolved the old fashioned way (describing what you do etc.) or through SCs or mix of both.

I think I can manage it with 4e (with modifications of course). Pretty excited about the possibilities!

EDIT: minor typos

 

[MNblockhead]

I don't think I would use any prior edition. Currently I'm running the massive megadungeon Rappan Athuk using 5e. But if I were to use a different system I would go with Sword and Wizardry or Dungeon Crawl Classics.

 

[Hussar]

Of those you listed only Barrowmaze is a true megadungeon -- although Rappan Athuk may be at this point, since it has gone through major expansion and revision since it first appeared. I haven't seen the latest version. Both ToEE and Thracia are "big dungeons" which aren't the same thing.

The key difference at least as is usually discussed is that a megadungeon is dynamic underground environment where adventures take place -- not an adventure in and of itself. There are rooms and traps and treasure and monsters, of course, but there is no "plot." PCs enter and explore a megadungeon for lots of reasons, but none of them are "to clear it" since it can't be cleared.

In short "megadungeon" =/= "big dungeon."

Ah, I didn't realize that there was a distinction here and that having stories actually made something not a "mega-dungeon". So, I guess I've never run a mega-dungeon using this definition and something like The World's Largest Dungeon would not fit this criteria either since apparently mega-dungeon means pretty much random conglomeration of encounters with nothing connecting them - since that would make a plot - and no actual events - since that's a plot as well.

Yeah, I'd only play that on some sort of Rogue platform because what you just described is about as far from a tabletop RPG experience as I want to get.

 

[Parmandur]

Yeah, I'd only play that on some sort of Rogue platform because what you just described is about as far from a tabletop RPG experience as I want to get.

I mean...Rogue was just an exercise in progra.ming stuff from the DMG. A Megadungeon,by my definition, is a tabletop Rogue-Like.

 

[Malmuria]

It is always interesting to me what becomes the Flavor of Now or the current It Game. I am playing a session of Blades in the Dark tonight just to try and figure out how that game became the darling it has.

I think faithfulness to b/x and layout is what OSE brings to the table. There's also online tools. The advanced version includes an expanded set of race-as-class classes, which is appealing to me. That said if you are already familiar with LL or the original b/x booklets or whatever it's probably not worth buying something new

 

[Reynard]

Ah, I didn't realize that there was a distinction here and that having stories actually made something not a "mega-dungeon". So, I guess I've never run a mega-dungeon using this definition and something like The World's Largest Dungeon would not fit this criteria either since apparently mega-dungeon means pretty much random conglomeration of encounters with nothing connecting them - since that would make a plot - and no actual events - since that's a plot as well.

Yeah, I'd only play that on some sort of Rogue platform because what you just described is about as far from a tabletop RPG experience as I want to get.

Note that I didn't say stories did not happen in a megadungeon campaign. They certainly do, but like most good RPG campaigns, those stories emerge from play where the PCs interact with the environment and the things in it. What differentiates a megadungeon from, say, ToEE is that ToEE is itself a "story" -- just another adventure along the way. ToEE could easily happen within a megadungeon, just being a few levels in the larger scheme of the environment. In fact, a great way to build a megadungeon is to lash together a bunch of dungeons from other adventures as individual levels or regions. Ultimately a megadungeon is just the "frontier wilderness" in which a "normal" campaign takes place, but as a more structured and confined space.

 

[Hex08]

I would choose 2nd edition if I had to use an edition of D&D. The first mega dungeon/dungeon crawl I ever ran was Night Below and I have really fond memories of it. I've recently been thinking about running it again using the Castles & Crusades rules, which would be ruleset I would choose if not limited to pure D&D editions.

 

[Hussar]

I mean...Rogue was just an exercise in progra.ming stuff from the DMG. A Megadungeon,by my definition, is a tabletop Rogue-Like.

Totally fair. Just not something I’d enjoy.

 

[Parmandur]

Totally fair. Just not something I’d enjoy.

Yeah, not sure for myself either.