Which Prc for the Paladin?

[Darklone]

Fwiw - Human Pal1 str18, dex16, con14, int10, wis8, cha18

NOnononononono!

Paladin should look like:
Str 18, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 18.

Maybe put wis on 12 and int on 10.

I'd start with pal4/ftr4 for weapon spec goodness and some bonus feats (Mounted Combat towards Spirited Charge, Power Attack, Cleave, Divine Might).

This would be effective. Forget Prestige classes.

Edit: If your DM insists on silly paladin multiclass restrictions, go ftr4 and play a pious fighter, then paladin straightforward and take Divine Might at level 9. I'd suggest to take a traditional longsword with Weapon Focus and Specialisation.

If you insist on keeping your stats with a silly Dex 16, go for TWF and Divine Might.

 

[Darklone]

Smite Evil (and the problematic mount) are the only offensive abilities he has - he needs a LOT more offense than that, to be considered "THE Smacker-Down of Evil", as is the prevalent (and misguided) thought regarding Paladins.

Reaper, the paladins I saw were actually doing a lot of damage to anyone with Divine Favour and other buffs... even before they got Divine Might. And their defensive capabilities: High AC (if sword&shield twinks), best saves eva, fear immunity. The paladin IMC was always the last man standing (in the front row next to the barbarians and fighters).

 

[reapersaurus]

Reaper, the paladins I saw were actually doing a lot of damage to anyone with Divine Favour and other buffs... even before they got Divine Might. And their defensive capabilities: High AC (if sword&shield twinks), best saves eva, fear immunity. The paladin IMC was always the last man standing (in the front row next to the barbarians and fighters).

Please don't start this again, Darklone.

I think I just realized the problem with us.
When I say "The Paladin doesn't do as much damage as a Ftr or a combination class against Evil" you hear me say "The Paladin can't do damage against Evil."
I'll say it to you again: The Paladin can NOT do as much damage over the course of an encounter, a day, or a campaign as a Ftr or a base multiclass.
Proof: He gets no offensive capabilities (save his mount) against anything other than Evil creatures.
Against Evil creatures, he only has a 1 to 3 attack per day (Smite, notice I'm discounting above 15th level, since so few campaigns get that high) bonus which is dependant on him staying straight Paladin to get the bonus to damage. Notice that as a comparison, the damage from a Smite is not that much - a Quickened True Strike can do MUCH more combined with Power Attack.

Now, about those "buffs" your Paladin decimated opponents with:
You do realize that a Divine Favor cast by a Paladin of level 11 and below will grant him a whopping +1 to attack/damage for 1 minute, right? (Paladin levels count as HALF, crippling his buffing capability).
And look at his spell list!
What else is he going to use to good effect?
Greater Magic Weapon is a joke with half caster levels.
The stat-buff spells are ineffective for the Paladin - almost everyone who needs enhancement to attributes has to buy Belts of Strength now, and the like.
Other than Holy Sword (only available at level 15 (!) unless he has 18 WIS), the Paladin doesn't have ONE effective offensive spell!

I'll say that again for emphasis - the Paladin has ONE effective offensive spell (i.e. one that's worth casting, instead of just entering combat). And this spell ability is what he sacrifices almost all his granted features above Level 3 for?!

I'll grant you, Darklone, that he may make more saves than others, and he won;t run away in fear (how often does that REALLY come up?), but he won;t have higher AC : DEX is one of a Paladins' few dump-stats, and he doesn't get enough feats to get high AC. Almost every character class in the game has more ability to get higher AC than a Paladin.
And I never said he wasn't a good defensive character - yet.
But being defensive is NOT what the Paladin class should be about, in my opinion.

P.S. What exactly is a Sword & Shield twink, with relation to a Paladin?
He doesn't get enough feats to do much with it, and there's nothing twinky at ALL about using a Shield - giving up 2-handed weapon damage and gaining +2 AC is not exactly a "twink". The only real benefit a shiled provides is the ability to get enhancement bonuses to it - oh yeah, the Paladin doesn't get Magic Vestment spell. Shucks.

 

[green slime]

So what would be suitable alternatives to giving up those listed abilities?

Lower HD? Lower BAB? Worse saves? Increased armour/weapon restrictions? Forgoing all character wealth? Assuming we don't want to gave something away for nothing? How many Feat slots and Skills would you be willing to "waste" to enter your prestige class? At what level would you feel you needed to retain Mount/Smite/lay-on-hands/Remove Disease /spellcasting.

I'm intrigued. I could see a Paladin PrC that dumped spellcasting for more specialised anti-Evil SU-abilities, or loosing other stuff to increase spellcasting ability, or a multitude of options. It strikes me that Hospitaler does just that: Increases the spellcasting ability of a paladin, not at the expense of Combat, but at the expense of some other abilities. I find it hard to see that a cleric is going to qualify easily, given the two skill requirements that are both cross class skills for a cleric.

Just what would you be willing to give up of the Paladin's arsenal? And just how do you view the champion of good?

Side note: One aspect that nevers seems to be properly explored, for me, in this game, is the aspect of Chaos. It strikes me that Paladins should be just as useful against creatures of Chaos, as against that of Evil. There aren't even many spells with a law/chaos descriptor.

 

[Thanee]

I'll say it to you again: The Paladin can NOT do as much damage over the course of an encounter, a day, or a campaign as a Ftr or a base multiclass.

I wouldn't bet on that.

Not saying, that the Paladin would deal more damage than anyone, surely not (especially compared to Cleric or Sorcerer/Wizard), but compared to the Fighter, the Paladin should be "better" over the course of a campaign, mainly because of his WAY better saves!

Divine Sacrifice is a pretty neat Paladin spell for not overly high levels. Does some damage to him, but also lots of damage to his foes!

I have seen two Paladin characters over the course of long running campaigns (the longest from level 1 to ~19) and can't say they were weak. Not really!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Side note: One aspect that nevers seems to be properly explored, for me, in this game, is the aspect of Chaos. It strikes me that Paladins should be just as useful against creatures of Chaos, as against that of Evil. There aren't even many spells with a law/chaos descriptor.

Well, Good-Evil is by far the stronger axis compared to Law-Chaos.

Guess that's why.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Yes, Paladins are lacking in this area, but I don't agree, that Paladins are weak. Actually in 3.0 they were the most powerful fighter class, now they are probably tied with the Ranger after the huge powerup.

You don't need any more offense, than what the Paladin got. Sure they can't compare to spellcasters at higher levels, noone can, but their defensive abilities are what makes them the best fighters, as staying in the fight adds a lot of damage potential.

LOL! Are you pulling my leg?

If defensive abilities are what makes a character class powerful, the other classes cannot touch a Monk or Cleric. The Paladin is a very distant third.

If you are going to use this rather, um, interesting definition of powerful, you actually need to consider what a "powerful" Fighter or Barbarian build would look like. They would have both higher Con and Wis than a Paladin, and pick up Iron Will. The Barbarian gets a Will bonus while raging, too. Everyone here has amazing Fort saves, so a small difference doesn't matter. The Paladin's Will save may well be lower. Her Refl will be higher, but she will significantly lower HPs, so I do not see that as an edge.

The Fighter and Barbarian do even better if they grab one level of Cleric. That is a trick that does not work so well for the Paladin because she is duplicating abilities while delaying progression in major class abilities.

The most powerful "Paladin Prc" is hands down the Holy Liberator. Forget about being a Paladin, go Cleric/Fighter with the Luck domain and high Cha (of course). Your Fort and Will will be so high it will make the Paladin puke.

 

[Bauglir]

NOnononononono!

Paladin should look like:
Str 18, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 18.

Maybe put wis on 12 and int on 10.

I'd start with pal4/ftr4 for weapon spec goodness and some bonus feats (Mounted Combat towards Spirited Charge, Power Attack, Cleave, Divine Might).

This would be effective. Forget Prestige classes.

Edit: If your DM insists on silly paladin multiclass restrictions, go ftr4 and play a pious fighter, then paladin straightforward and take Divine Might at level 9. I'd suggest to take a traditional longsword with Weapon Focus and Specialisation.

If you insist on keeping your stats with a silly Dex 16, go for TWF and Divine Might.

I took the high dex for 4 reasons.

1. I wanted to make the character capable both in melee and at range (dex more relevant here at low levels, superceded by BAB later)
2. Dodge, Mobility --> Spring Attack
3. Light armour for increased mobility (BoS&S)
4. Better Reflex Save

AC counts for less and less as you approach higher levels as it just doesn't keep up with monster ABs (particularly with this DM - the encounters he throws can be just silly) and I think the ability to avoid attacks altogether through spring attack will serve me better.

 

[green slime]

Well, Good-Evil is by far the stronger axis compared to Law-Chaos.

Guess that's why.

Bye
Thanee

But that so absolutely fails to address why...

Why are they "stronger"? For what purpose?

The alignment diagram/chart has nine boxes, not two rooms and 7 pigeon holes. The Outer Planes do not consist of Heaven and Hell alone, with a couple of attached "holding places" for those indecisive miscreants.

They even have this silly war going on between LE and CE there.

And yet... Law vs. Chaos conflicts are barely reflected in the Rule books (no spells, no (Pr) classes, barely any spells. They even publish BoVD and BoED...how about treatises on Law and Chaos? Order vs Mayhem? Morality vs Passion? Objectivity vs Subjectivity? The State vs the Individual?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

But that so absolutely fails to address why...

Why are they "stronger"? For what purpose?

The alignment diagram/chart has nine boxes, not two rooms and 7 pigeon holes. The Outer Planes do not consist of Heaven and Hell alone, with a couple of attached "holding places" for those indecisive miscreants.

The reason is Good vs. Evil is easier for DMs. In a typical campaign the PCs are heroes, and are therefore mostly good aligned. Good vs. Evil is also the simplest to picture in a cartoony sort of way for people who live in a culture strongly influenced by Christian ethos.

The net result is that more generatec material focuses on this easier alignment axis, sidelining the conflict between Law vs. Chaos as fodder for IC conflicts & roleplaying.

Certainly it would be possible to run a Law vs. Chaos campaign, but not something for a newbie. IME it would also be difficult to get a team of players to choose a side and stick to it, but YMMV on that point.

I further speculate that a number of people inclined to run a Law vs. Chaos campaign have a sufficiently sophisticated and nuanced perception of moral systems that the standard alignment metaphysics would not appeal to them at all.

Would your friends get excited about being, say, a team of lawful characters who team up with Devils and Inevitables to thwart the dastardly plans of Lillendi and Demons? It is a harder sell.