Which PrCl would you never want in your game? (part 1 - DMG)

[DungeonMaster]

Wow you've got a big mouth when you're left to your own devices for little under an hour...

Just using plain rules, not trying to abuse the item crafting system, polymorph or other highly abusable mechanics. I'll correct any mistakes if anyone can find them.
And no item worth more than 30 percent of the character's wealth.
I won't even try to use all the advantages of the MT, just break more than even in many categories.

THE URGE
Human Evoker3/Clr3/Urge6
Stats: str 8, dex 14 (12+ 2 gloves), con 15 (13+ 2 iounstone), int 20 (15+1 levels+ 4 headband), wis 20 (14 +2 levels +4 periapt), cha 10
Hp: 63.5 (8 +2d8+9d4 = 28.5 + 2x12 con)
AC: 22 (10 + 2 dex + 5 wis +1 monk + 4 mage armor)
Touch AC: 18
Saves: +12/+12/+20
( 3/1/3 cleric + 1/1/3 wizard + 2/2/5 MT then + 2 con, +4 dex and weasel + 5 wiz then +3 resistance +1 luck)
Skills: the standard, spellcraft, concentration and so forth, not a big deal will be better than the non-MTs
Feats: Scribe scroll (free), Empower spell (1st), Maximize spell (1st), Craft wondrous item (3rd), Spell penetration (6th), Quicken spell (9th), Craft rod (12th).
Gear: 88 000 total
8000 Metamagic rod of lesser maximize (crafted)
17500 Metamagic rod of lesser quicken (crafted)
4000 Ring of counterspells
8000 Periapt of wisdom +4 (crafted)
8000 Headband of intellect +4 (crafted)
4500 Cloak of resistance +3 (crafted)
15000 Orange ioun stone (crafted)
6500 Monk's belt (crafted)
4000 Ioun stone +2 Con (crafted)
2000 Gloves of dexterity +2 (crafted)
10000 Luckstone (crafted)
100 Weasel familiar
150 scroll of fox's cunning
200 scribing cost of fox's cunning
-----------------------------
87950 GP total
Extra cash for scrolls, mundane gear, etc...

Spells per day:
Arcane:
1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th
4+1/4+1/3+1/2+1/1+1 (+ from specialisation)
2/1/1/1/1/1 from int 20
Total:
7/5/5/4/3
Divine:
1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th
4+1/4+1/3+1/2+1/1+1 (+ from domain)
2/1/1/1/1/1 from wis 20
7/5/5/4/3

Sample Wizard spell book: (2 per level except for 5+2=7 at level 1)
1st level: Mage armor, Magic missile, True-strike, Burning hands, Charm person, Ventriloquism
2nd level: Scorching ray, Fox's cunning, Mirror image, Gust of wind, Cat's grace
3rd level: Fireball, Lightning bolt, Displacement, Stinking cloud
4th level: Improved invisibility, Black tentacles, Wall of ice, Wall of fire
5th level: Feeblemind, Bigby's interposing hand

Typical spell selection: DCs are (15+ spell level)

Arcane: (opposition schools necromancy and abjuration)
5th: Empowered fireball x2, Feeblemind
4th: Improved invisibility, Evard's black tentacles, Wall of ice, Empowered scorching ray
3rd: Fireball x2, Lightning bolt x1, Empowered magic missile, Stinking cloud
2nd: Scorching ray x3, Mirror image, Gust of wind
1st: Magic missile x4, Mage Armor, True strike, Charm person

Divine:
5th: Teleport, Spell resistance, True Seeing
4th: Dimension door, Death ward, Divine power, Dimensional Anchor
3rd: Fly, Seering light, Dispel magic x2, Protection from energy
2nd: Aid, Silencex2, Resist energy, Hold person
1st: Longstrider, Sanctuary x2, Sheild of faith, Divine favor, Obscuring mist, Command


Domains are Travel and Luck, gets to re-roll 1/day a save, attack roll, etc... and freedom of movement 1/day


Standard way of killing the opposing wizard+cleric (as if it matters since it's so easy):
"Since I am so weak I guess I get to go first right?"
Round 1: Empowered Maximized(rod)Fireball + Quickened(rod) Empowered fireball
- even if dipswitch and company make both saves, the wizard is dead. Big if too.
Especially without a divine ability to reroll.
And likely has to save for death from massive damage too.
Or Round 1: Black tentacles + Quickened(rod) Silence
Or Round 1: Or plain maximized seering light (or empowered maximized searing light if he's feeling mean)
Or Round 1: Plain old Feeblemind vs. his very wimpy save...
Or Round 1: Dimensional anchor + quickened well you get the gist.
And that's only his offense. Better luck next time plucky. And the leadership modifier is for having a familiar not acquiring one while you have a cohort. *sigh*

 

[Snowy]

and the cleric who was standig behind you rather than next to his wizard master hits you with his axe and your dead.

 

[Snowy]

sorry that was a bit brief, I wont bother with the build I'm sure its a great one.

All the tactics you suggested can be done by a straight wizard, or at least the ones based on a variation of quickened "this" normal "this" (where this is a high damage spell). They aren't just Mystic theurge special abilities. The mage OR the cleric can also do this in fact slightly better as they can maximise a better spell as they can CAST HIGHER LEVEL SPELLS.

Actually I was wrong there is one thing I'll comment on, your dig about going first, as the mage lacks MAD, he can pump up DEX as well as INT to improve initiative and as he/she doesn't need as many feats to pump up spellcasting he can take improved initiative and quick recconoiter if they want to puch it they can even take danger sense too.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Standard way of killing the opposing wizard+cleric (as if it matters since it's so easy):

If this is your standard for balance, no wonder you're so voiciferous in decrying the lack of balance in the game....

Balance doesn't come from winning in a PvP battle. It comes from contributing to a party against challenges of varying ELs.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Balance doesn't come from winning in a PvP battle. It comes from contributing to a party against challenges of varying ELs.

Agreed 100% that's why I said "as if it matters". It doesn't. Any reasonable person that knows the system will tell you a spellcaster able to cast 5th level magic can kill a spellcaster that can cast 6th. That's fruitless discussion. Even the "cohort" argument is moronic, all you really need is to charm some monster, like a hydra or a spellcasting outsider, or a naga, or an NPC. If you treat them well they'll follow you and help you out. Or use planar ally for instance, which he has.

The point is URGE here is doing what 2 characters do.
That's the gold standard of balance - stealing the role of other characters. Even stealing 50% of the role of other characters is broken in my opininon - let alone casting "spell resistance" and having ludicrous saves, and then maximize-empowered-fireballing.
"Beware the all powerful hybrid that has the firepower of a wizard and the healing power of a cleric". Those are the words from the 3rd edition DMG under designing classes.

And besides, the MT is from the stats #3 most banned so I can't be that out of step of general opinion .

 

[DungeonMaster]

All the tactics you suggested can be done by a straight wizard, or at least the ones based on a variation of quickened "this" normal "this" (where this is a high damage spell).

Of course they can. The wizard can even have all the same gear. His cohort is then naked however.

They aren't just Mystic theurge special abilities. The mage OR the cleric can also do this in fact slightly better as they can maximise a better spell as they can CAST HIGHER LEVEL SPELLS.

They have 1 higher level slot. It's important but really push comes to shove, having the extra spell pool is golden. I don't *have* to take protection versus elements on my arcane half. Or teleport. And the domain granted powers are just icing on the cake.

Actually I was wrong there is one thing I'll comment on, your dig about going first, as the mage lacks MAD, he can pump up DEX as well as INT to improve initiative and as he/she doesn't need as many feats to pump up spellcasting he can take improved initiative and quick recconoiter if they want to puch it they can even take danger sense too.

Or we could both abuse polymorph for this sort of discussion and get silly dex scores. It's just an example. He's never going to be able to "scry" on me by 3.5 rules, my will save is ludicrous. We can go on and on.

 

[Storm Raven]

And the leadership modifier is for having a familiar not acquiring one while you have a cohort. *sigh*

I'll deal with the rest of your silliness later. You need to go back and reread the Leadership feat. The modifier applies if you have a familiar when you recruit your cohort. After that, your Leadership score matters not at all with respect to the level your cohort can obtain. There are rules given for how cohorts gain experience points.

So, maybe you need to brush up on some rules before you start getting cocky. I'll deal with the rest of your complete goofs later.

 

[Testament]

Like his use of the quicken rod on the empowered fireball?

 

[Storm Raven]

Round 1: Empowered Maximized(rod)Fireball + Quickened(rod) Empowered Fireball

Hey, big guy, you do realize that this is illegal don't you? I'm interested in seeing how you cast a spell with somatic and material components with a pair of rods in your hands. You know, I'm getting almost afraid to check the rest of your silliness, given the very basic mistakes you make on a regular basis concerning the rules.

I'm also interested in seeing how you cast two empowered fireballs, since you apparently only memorized one.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Hey, big guy, you do realize that this is illegal don't you? From the description of metamagic rods "a caster may only use one metamagic rod on a given spell" (DMG page 236). You know, I'm getting almost afraid to check the rest of your silliness, given the very basic mistakes you make on a regular basis concerning the rules.

Well, what he's doing isn't *strictly* illegal for the reason you state.

He's got an Empowered Fireball memorized, and is maximizing it with his lesser metamagic rod of maximize. The problem is that you cannot use a Lesser Metamagic rod on any spell higher than 3rd level, meaning that Empowered Fireball (a 5th-level spell) is likely not a valid target.

The next problem is that he's using two separate rods in a single turn - each of which needs to be in-hand in order to be used. Since you also need a free hand to cast any spell with a somatic or material component (of which Fireball has both) and I don't see Eschew Materials or Still Spell in there, he's definately running out of hands.

EDIT: He also seems to only have one Empowered Fireball memorized - though he could easily switch the LB for an FB, so the issue is less important.

Another point which has not actually been addressed is that each character is starting off at 12th level with standard gold and unlimited XP to spend.

This isn't the way to handle things.

Instead, start with an XP total and a GP total. Spend them however you wish (levels, multiclassing penalties, crafting, etc.).