Who Else likes the Cantina?

[Desdichado]

So I picked on an Orc sue me actually Tolkein has a scene where an orc mentions he'd rather be home right now... you have to figure longing for home and having a sense of family (that was revealed in another Orcish quote) kind of leaves orcs as complete monsters somewhere in a dung heap.. well Tolkein Orcs anyway.

Well, as I alluded to in the comments on the blog, Tolkien's a much more subtle writer than a lot of people give him credit for, and just because they made a facile and shallow interpretation of what he wrote doesn't mean that's actually what he wrote. There are a lot of hints (and in other, external texts, these aren't hints, they're outright statements) that a lot of the groups of creatures and people that are described as "evil" by some of the characters are victims of bad PR; i.e., the Gondorians and Rohirrim won the war, and the victors write the history books. The Dunlendings in particular are described as being subject to thousands of years of persecution by the Gondorians and Rohirrim, and even the Numenoreans before that, before being exploited and manipulated by Saruman, without actually being evil at all. There's others, but that was probably the most clear-cut example I could think of off the top of my head.

But the point is, I think the idea of D&D races as flat stereotypes is boring much more than I think it's offensive. It's only offensive in the sense that it offends me that the designers think their audience is so shallow. I'm not offended on behalf of the orcs that they're stereotyped as brutish, evil thugs, incapable of organizing enough to amount to anything politically, and incapable of achieving anything other than brutal military victories on occasion. When they get lucky. There aren't any real orcs to be offended by that stereotype, and D&D orcs aren't metaphors for any real world peoples, so there's no one to be offended either way.

The other point is, again, that the Star Wars cantina is not characterized by it's Otherness, or alien-ness or whatever. Star Wars aliens are very clearly just people in funny suits. For example, other than the fact the Chewbacca speaks in a language that makes him sound like a combination of a grizzly bear and a walrus, personality wise, he's completely human. Jabba the Hutt is a legless slug, yet he's based on a bad stereotype of Al Capone and Genghis Khan. The Star Wars cantina paradigm does not really allow for roleplaying "the other"; it's about thin stereotypes being hammed up for quick and dirty effect. Races in Star Wars are very much human, with just a few bizarre quirks (mind tricks don't work on Toydarians, only money, etc.) Same thing for races in D&D. They're not about deep immersion in alien-ness, they are about extremely human characteristics turned up to 11 and made into a defining trait.

 

[Garthanos]

Your idea has merit from a technical angle, but I just can't see myself (or anyone I play with) signing on to the implied flavor.

I'd rather play someone awesomely badass, who kicks your sword aside while spitting in your eye and propositioning your mother, rather than "ooo you missed me because I'm small and non-threatening!" -- identical mechanical effects, but not quite the same feel.

Cheers, -- N

Remember your earlier quote "with no awe-struck (inexperienced) protagonists, the kind of stories we're trying to simulate don't quite come off right."

The character I mention that inspires others to fight for him and who gets missed by the bad guys for different reasons and who provokes the bad guys into harming themselves or each other, can make a fair DM-PC too. He becomes another tool for the other PC's to feel awesome... ie a weaker seeming protagonist that is helpful but not stealing thunder... shrug..

Hmmm guess its a thread divergence.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

To the issue of "orcs to kill": the whole dilemma of needing to kill your opposition is why I prefer games where non-lethal combat is a good option. You can try for alternatives like conquering armies and evil cults, but there's still always the possibility people aren't as bad as their associations (I think there was a Penny Arcade about this). The best anyone can do is if the other guy tries to kill you first.

 

[Garthanos]

To the issue of "orcs to kill": the whole dilemma of needing to kill your opposition is why I prefer games where non-lethal combat is a good option. You can try for alternatives like conquering armies and evil cults, but there's still always the possibility people aren't as bad as their associations (I think there was a Penny Arcade about this). The best anyone can do is if the other guy tries to kill you first.

The latest D&D gives you the option of making your finishing blow a non-lethal one ... so there is more culture than mechanics involved.

 

[Chainsaw]

Cantina needs the right setting and players, for me. Love the Cantina in Star Wars. Love the Cantina in a sword and planet game. Not a fan of the Cantina in my gritty humans only world. Plus, in my LFR experience, I've just not seen it pulled off very well. The races aren't usually chosen because anyone wants to play a different culture and follow it through consistently in interactions with others.. they're just chosen because of an extra plus or power, so they end up being played as humans and just sort of ruins my suspension of disbelief. I'm sure lots of people have had great experiences though. More power to them. Happy gaming.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

....they're just chosen because of an extra plus or power....

Short of making all racial stats the same (or playing a point-buy system where your race stats count against your total points) there's really nothing you can do. In an all-humans game you'd end up with the same problem because either you assign human nationalities/cultures different stats or everyone start out with the same racial crunch.

 

[haakon1]

In an all-humans game you'd end up with the same problem because either you assign human nationalities/cultures different stats or everyone start out with the same racial crunch.

Why is it a problem for all humans to have the same rules on ability scores?

You can still differentiate in culture, including what classes they are likely to take, skills/feats they are likely to take, languages, and equipment, if you're only concerned with stuff you can see on a character sheet.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

Why is it a problem for all humans to have the same rules on ability scores?

It isn't if you're okay with that. But at that point we're not talking about racial crunch anymore.

You can still differentiate in culture, including what classes they are likely to take, skills/feats they are likely to take, languages, and equipment, if you're only concerned with stuff you can see on a character sheet.

A similar thing could have been done with most of what non-humans are in D&D: suggestions of what ability scores would be high rather than an ability bonus would eliminate the "picked only for a +2" effect. Culture-derived racial abilities would be replaced with feat/skill suggestions. So you'd be left mostly with issues like size and senses.

 

[Nifft]

Remember your earlier quote "with no awe-struck (inexperienced) protagonists, the kind of stories we're trying to simulate don't quite come off right."

The character I mention that inspires others to fight for him and who gets missed by the bad guys for different reasons and who provokes the bad guys into harming themselves or each other, can make a fair DM-PC too. He becomes another tool for the other PC's to feel awesome... ie a weaker seeming protagonist that is helpful but not stealing thunder... shrug..

Hmmm guess its a thread divergence.

If you are happy playing a comic relief dude, that's cool. My tastes don't run that way: comic relief, like slapstick, is among the things I'd rather see than be.

But yeah, comic relief vs. serious butt-kicker is an axis orthogonal to n00b vs. jaded veteran -- both Luke and Han are in the butt-kicker camp, with only minor comedy split between them.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Garthanos]

If you are happy playing a comic relief dude, that's cool. My tastes don't run that way: comic relief, like slapstick, is among the things I'd rather see than be.

I remember the comedy relief characters bringing some of the most appreciated fun to the table various times.

The point was that Ability in battle doesnt have to be skinned as uber competance... the innocent newbies are not necessarily anthing but innocent in a Worldly sense not necessarily "lower level" in D&D sense.

But yeah, comic relief vs. serious butt-kicker is an axis orthogonal to n00b vs. jaded veteran -- both Luke and Han are in the butt-kicker camp, with only minor comedy split between them.

Cheers, -- N

I argue luke is indeed butt kicker out the door... with only his responses to the Cantina being his innocence.... Give him Force Aiming and Piloting... long before meeting Obi-wan.