Who Else likes the Cantina?

[Theo R Cwithin]

@Rechan: If everyone put as much into character psychology as you seem to, I'd totally never leave the "cantina". Your games must be a trip!

 

[Mercule]

I come at it from a different place. I studied humans as my specialty too. But I studied history and political science -- SOCIETIES, not individuals -- and saw there's incredible variation over time and space in what human societies are like.

I wonder if fields of study and viewpoints on the cantina are related. I did political science and philosophy, darn near pulling a minor in history, too. I tend to prefer a humanocentric game.

I'm not really a fan of a human-only game, but I like seeing humanity as the baseline. First, because it's the best way (IMO) to compare non-humans and see why I'd care. Second, because if you can't tell it's not human, why bother?

I'll compare my current campaign to my prior campaign. Currently, I'm running an anything goes, 4e, Eberron campaign without any human PCs. Besides some stat bonuses and special abilities, there's really nothing that shows the PCs aren't human. They all have very human motivations -- even the warforged wants to visit the taverns. Bleh. Just make 'em human and be done.

For my last campaign, which closed out my 25 year old homebrew, I stipulated that there had to be at least two humans and no more than one of any other race was allowed. With the same players, the elf and the gnome were constantly acting non-human. There were some very interesting conversations as the elf learned more and more about the origins of the elves and dealt with some of the baggage that came with it. Yes, some of the same things could have been done with an odd lineage of humans or exotic civilization, but having it be racial and visible really helped.

I guess my attitude toward the cantina is that it's fine, so long as the races aren't just humans with a new paint job. If you're playing the dragonborn for something different, then I'd like it to be played different, stand out against the backdrop, and be notable. If it blends in, it's really no different than playing a human, anyway.

It does work for certain settings, though, like Planescape. With Planescape, you know you're one step beyond and the races highlight that, even if they really don't mean much. The default assumptions I make in fantasy, though, are based around races meaning something. I have absolutely no problem with Planescape, and people playing it (or another cantina) aren't having badwrongfun. Just not my thing and I'd prefer it to not be baked into the core rules assumptions.

To follow Jon Snow's lead, I'd say humans are the only tier A race I have IMC. Eladrin (which, IMO, is what elves have always been), dwarves, and hobgoblins make up tier B. Gnomes, half-orcs, elves (aka wood elves), half-elves, and now dragonborn are tier C. Tier D are goblins, elan, full orcs, tieflings, deva, and a handful of others.

Tier A is what I assume unless specifically told otherwise and is ubiquitous. Tier B are fairly common and not overly noteworthy. They walk the line between foreign and familiar, but I expect some representation in most groups. Tier C are a bit alien and should expect to stand out and experience some prejudice. They are rare as NPCs, but not so much that a PC would need special consideration (half-orcs make this tier mainly for tradition's sake). Tier D are freakishly rare as NPCs -- at least as functioning members of normal society -- or have something else special about them that requires some justification, but is still something I consider well within the realm of an appropriate PC. Anything else requires justification and could be unique in its role.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

IBesides some stat bonuses and special abilities, there's really nothing that shows the PCs aren't human. They all have very human motivations -- even the warforged wants to visit the taverns. Bleh. Just make 'em human and be done.

So it didn't matter to people that they looked different and had different bodies? I can wrap my head around not liking that even if I can't wrap my head around the idea of an alien mindset. Whenever I've been non-human it's been because the body is important to my image of the character and thus their identity, even though they're still a human in a suit.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

For someone who's, funny enough, also going to school for social psychology...

...you're looking way too deeply into a tabletop roleplaying game with dragon-men and robots

 

[haakon1]

Simple philosophical questions like "What is it to be human" and such like that become far more when you've got lots of not-humans.

Maybe, but I think you can get a lot of these "what does it mean to be human" questions with just one or two alien characters (I'm thinking Star Trek: TNG with just Worf and Data) in a group of "normals".

 

[haakon1]

For someone who's, funny enough, also going to school for social psychology...

...you're looking way too deeply into a tabletop roleplaying game with dragon-men and robots

Nah, nothing wrong with thinking this stuff through. Besides, who knows, he could end up being a great SF author on the side. Some professors have written pretty interesting books in their spare time.

 

[JohnSnow]

Maybe, but I think you can get a lot of these "what does it mean to be human" questions with just one or two alien characters (I'm thinking Star Trek: TNG with just Worf and Data) in a group of "normals".

Not to quibble too much...but,

Deanna Troi was half alien. Granted, that still means most of the bridge crew was human, but I still had to bring it up.

 

[Rechan]

For the record I do lots of writing. Just not in the SF arena. It's one area I'm not all that well versed in.

Maybe, but I think you can get a lot of these "what does it mean to be human" questions with just one or two alien characters (I'm thinking Star Trek: TNG with just Worf and Data) in a group of "normals".

I'm fairly unfamiliar with Star Trek in general, although I get the impression from what little I know that Data is more interested in becoming MORE human.

I find it more curious the question of becoming less, or deviating, and what that means.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

To try and jump back on topic:

I think the Cantina is fine, so long as it's used sparingly. Otherwise it loses its purpose.

The Cantina effect is supposed to be something wild, a "You aren't on Earth anymore" moment. You step into this cantina in the "hive of scum and villany" and find yourself surrounded by all manner of weird aliens and bizarre non-humans. Star Wars was a very human-centric adventure, and the aliens were meant to stand out as being non-human.

When everything is the cantina, there's really no point to it. It becomes mundane. Ho-hum, another bar where dragonpeople and angels are drinking with each other. Whatever.

Planescape was wild because other settings didn't do the cantina. Dark Sun was pretty adamantly anti-Cantina. Forgotten Realms had it's core seven (human, gnomes, elves, half elves, dwarves, halflings, and half-orcs) but even then, seeing a bar filled with all of them was a hint that you were in a major metropolis - and seeing other races in the tavern was a hint that Something Is Going On Here.

To put it in perspective, Planescape: Torment had a quest where your reward was the ability to taste the various different drinks at the Smoldering Corpse Bar. And those drinks? Had no effect on your character at all. Their entire purpose was to show the weird and exotic types of drinks in the setting.

Eberron doesn't have a Cantina thing going. It has the Casablanca. Race matters less then nationality - ok, you see an elf, a dwarf, and a half elf drinking together, big deal. But you see members from three different Houses - who are all human - drinking together, and that's a much bigger thing. Business Is Going Down.

I think that's the issue people have with the Cantina. It's fine every so often. But if the cantina is forced and made to be always present, it just loses it's point. The exotic becomes mundane.

 

[Nifft]

I think that's the issue people have with the Cantina. It's fine every so often. But if the cantina is forced and made to be always present, it just loses it's point. The exotic becomes mundane.

IMHO, the Cantina in Star Wars existed to highlight the difference between Luke and Han Solo.

If you're playing a Luke character (farmboy with greatness thrust upon him), then the Cantina should be infrequent.

But there are people who want to play Han Solo characters: part of their shtick is that they swim an a pool of weird, that they are jaded to the setting's fantastic elements.

LotR did this too, with wonder-struck Frodo being contrasted against the experienced Strider, who is at home in hostile wilderness and Elven lands alike. "Oh, a it's Nazgûl? Yeah, I've got special training in killing those..."

IMHO the "problem" -- if there is one -- is that D&D allows you to play either the awe-struck (inexperienced) protagonist or the awesome (experienced) mentor dude. Personally, I enjoy being awesome. However, with no awe-struck (inexperienced) protagonists, the kind of stories we're trying to simulate don't quite come off right.

This is part of why I like Eberron, by the way: it's tailor-made for jaded B-movie "noir" protagonists, and those are fun to play. Cyberpunk settings like Shadowrun are similar: you're supposed to all be the jaded guy, so there's no conflict between the emulated genre and the game as it is played.

Cheers, -- N