Just because someone doesn't say the word badwrongfun doesn't mean they aren't saying exactly that.
They definitely aren't saying that.
As I said, a lot of people have said I was wrong, but almost NO ONE has actually addressed the issues that I pointed out.
They have, though!
For example, the big one...Saving Throws. I've mentioned it several times (and if one actually HAD the book they can go look at the section labled Saving Throws, look in the glossary Saving Throws...those are the places where you'd expect to get the information and it's...just NOT THERE. In fact, it tells you the WRONG location of where to find it.
That's not where I'd expect to find it. That's where I'd expect the rules around it to be. I'd expect the specific-to-each-character Save DC to be found on the Character Sheet, where it can clearly be seen. I suppose that your concern is how it says that the DC can be found "on the Spell Cards" when it is referring, not to the DC, but to the Ability in question? I think it is also meant to say "Under the Spell Cards" - because if you read the Read Me First, it pretty clearly tells you where to place the cards, and the Spell DC is in a big red box under where you are supposed to place your spell cards. It shouldn't be hard to spot.
I get that you
didn't spot it, but... I'm not sure you should be blaming the product. I would say "Whoops!" and move on.
Does this bother anyone...no...except that they are experienced players.
I played with a lot of new players, just like you did. We didn't have any of those problems. I played with four different groups. Yes, I am experienced at doing this, but I didn't have to hold their hands for everything. I have the impression that it's a GREAT version of what it is.
And I'm no WotC-shill! I've had the misfortune of being in business with them for almost as long as they've existed! They seriously grate on me. That goes twice for Hasbro. I just think that they did a good job here.
I'm sorry you had such a bad experience, but honestly, if you'd left the (forgivable) hyperbole out of the title and the OP, and were a little more open to some culpability, it would be easier to take your side.
They love to use their experience to say it isn't hard...but I think it's harder for some of those with experience to actually see it from the perspective of new players and NO ONE is really addressing that point.
I think we have. I just don't agree with you. I think it's the best product ever made for New Players. I don't think it's close to perfect, though! You should see what I think of most Starters. For example, I think that the Phandelver-Essentials-Stormwreck Starters get progressively worse. Phandelver was really good. The others kept dropping down, so I'm glad to see them climb back up.
Similarly, there is no real clear instructions on how to set up your character.
Seemed pretty clear to me in the Read Me First. Nice big picture. Also lots of words.
Even the things that people have pointed out just were regurgitating what I already had posted previously at the beginning of the thread on what was told about character creation, but no one is addressing the real problem which is it never really says what to do with the cards.
It does in the read me first, and all over the character boards. It has pictures.
There is no real instruction (which is why my players had no idea they were supposed to get the cards in their hands and such).
I'm not sure what you expect "real instruction" to look like. I've seen BAD rulebooks for board games. This one was fine.
So, yes, LOTS of blame on me and my players with no one actually addressing the elephants in the room. If they had, perhaps they'd start to see WHY my players had problems in the first place and why that may be a problem later.
You made mistakes. Is that blame? I don't "blame" you for making mistakes (it happens), but you've made mistakes. You seem really reluctant to own them.
In my opinion, after reading this thread though, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the set ONLY puts information on the cards rather than in a central location where the players could see it that way as well. It doesn't really guide players on how these cards are supposed to work with the game...etc.
I'm not sure how much guidance would be needed. I didn't meet anyone on the weekend that had trouble grasping it, or if they did, it became obvious to them fast enough. It wasn't always me who instructed them, either. I admit that I never sat down a whole group of noobs and said "figure it out!" to see what would happen, but there was back-and-forth from everyone involved. Including the new people helping other new people when there were questions that the first new person had grasped the answer to.
The actual parts in the rule book (as I said, combat and skill checks went pretty smoothly) were things they grasped easily.
That's great!
It were portions that were not touched upon as deeply as combat or skill checks which presented problems...and that includes basic character creation (and why even have that in the Starter Set rather than pregens.
I think that pregens are the best, but I think that most D&D character sheets are TERRIBLE. These sort-of split the difference. I still think that there is a better solution, and even a better version of these could be designed (I have ideas) but... they're pretty good! Best we've see, at least.
Sure, I love being able to create characters...but make it a basic set than...a Starter Set should be just that and easy to START playing).
I think that this one is. Obviously, there's still room for improvement.
