D&D General Who shouldn't play D&D

Status
Not open for further replies.
Mindy. Mindy should not play Dungeons and Dragons. Mindy gets too stressed out by Dungeons and Dragons because she is so afraid her character will die. It's not fun for her. She likes creating characters but she doesn't want them to die. It is a cruelty to oneself to create something you love, then go put it into dangerous situations where it could die. Mindy, should not play Dungeons and Dragons.

Eh, Mindy's fine playing D&D. My daughter and her friends are like Mindy, so I run Wild Beyond the Witchlight for them. Their characters will not die, they just might suffer a setback if they make bad decisions.

D&D can certainly be used as a storytelling game without any combat at all. Hammers can also be used as eating utensils by spooning food into your mouth with the claw bit in the back. Doing so would be rather silly considering the existence of tools that are far better suited to that purpose.

D&D is not a choice between storytelling and combat. It's a spectrum which includes storytelling, politics, espionage, skill challenges, diplomacy, riddles, traps, exploration, survival, and so many other aspects. D&D functions quite well for many varied aspects, including combat. But even combat need not involve a serious threat of PC death. Indeed, MOST combat doesn't involve a serious threat of PC death in most games. And as I mentioned to Lakesidefantasy, there are adventures which appeal to people like the hypothetical Mindy, or the very real daughter I have, which don't involve a serious threat of PC death but are also not just storytelling.

If you don't want to play a game with combat and violence. Sure, D&D has other stuff. But a huge part of the game is built around fighting to the death. If you don't want that, find a different game that actually focuses on the parts you want to play.

But it can handle a game not focused on combat and violence quite well. And the example I keep giving, Wild Beyond the Witchlight, isn't the only one. It's not the only one for 5e (Candlekeep Mysteries has more like that), and it's not even exclusive to 5e.

For 2e, I played a really great adventure a couple years ago that was almost entirely politics, investigation, diplomacy, and exploration. It was a murder mystery, I wish I knew the name (I should ask the guy who was DM) but it was an old adventure, I suspect from a Dungeon Magazine, and didn't focus on combat or violence either. And it was great!

3e had some of those too. I recall loving the 3e Dungeon adventures called Challenge of the Champions. and I adored Gorgoldand's Gauntlet. All of these are focused on puzzles, traps, exploration, and thinking your way through challenges rather than combat.

4e of course had Skill Challenges. Some of those were fantastic.

I am trying to remember back to my 1e and B/X days. I seem to recall the Castle Amber series had a lot of non-combat goodness to it?
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad



And as I mentioned to Lakesidefantasy, there are adventures which appeal to people like the hypothetical Mindy, or the very real daughter I have, which don't involve a serious threat of PC death but are also not just storytelling.
Oh no, Mindy is a very real person. She likes to play Dungeons and Dragons, but she doesn't play because she's afraid for her character.

I brought up Mindy because I think some of us* get too attached to our characters. Then we inflict trama onto ourselves by putting our creations into situations where they can fail**. I don't think it is healthy to treat ourselves this way. Mindy is probably better off not playing Dungeons and Dragons.

And if you suffer trama when playing Dungeons and Dragons, maybe you shouldn't be playing.

* Some of us most of the time and most of us some of the time.

** Deal with that metapacifism.
 

There are a couple games where the player must first make "Player Action One" and then and only then may the player called DM look in the rule book and see they are allowed to take "DM Action One" now that the player has given them permision to do so.
Which RPGs do you have in mind here? I don't think I know any that fit this description.

For most RPGs they transcend beyond the label of "just a game". It is the thing that makes RPGs special.

<snip>

In the vast majority of game the DM just does what they want, on a whim. And you want and need a good DM to have a good game.
You seem to be describing a RPG in which one of the rules is The GM may stipulate whatever they like, whenever they like, about the shared fiction. So I still don't see the contrast between rules and GMing.

I also don't know any RPG that fits this description either, to be honest. At least not in its published rules. Even AD&D 2nd ed doesn't quite fit this description, I don't think.
 


Which RPGs do you have in mind here? I don't think I know any that fit this description.
As I don't have any of these games, I would have no idea on specific.
You seem to be describing a RPG in which one of the rules is The GM may stipulate whatever they like, whenever they like, about the shared fiction. So I still don't see the contrast between rules and GMing.

I also don't know any RPG that fits this description either, to be honest. At least not in its published rules. Even AD&D 2nd ed doesn't quite fit this description, I don't think.
Well, the DM is beyond the rules, that might be where you don't see it.

If your looking for a rule that says you can ignore or break the rules....you might not get it. A right kind of person does not need or want rules that tell them what to do.....
 



"Interesting. This has been on my mind for a long time - that for the sake of balance, the game designers at Wizards are sacrificing imagination and the whimsical attitude that once permeated the game.

<snip long stuff and example>

It is ironic that the same thing Gary Gygax was demonised for in the early 1980s is today held up by message board participants as the epitome of good design; even as infallible dogma. Gary could never have dreamed of succeeding in his attempt to make AD&D campaigns conform to a strict standard - and definitely not succeeding to this extent.

This begs the question: why does the Wizards of the Coast R&D team strive for so strict a balance and why does it intend to strip away out-of-box options from you? I call this phenomenon the tyranny of fun. A ludicrous name for a ludicrous concept, but there you have it. The WotC designers are not bad people. I am sure, for example, that the folks working there don’t hate the game or anything, maybe they don’t even kick puppies on their way home. Maybe they help old ladies across the street. They want you to have fun. Good, yes? Yes? No. The idea went wrong long ago and it shows no signs of getting better. When dealing with game philosophy, Wizards R&D doesn’t concentrate on thinking up stuff that makes playing fun anymore. That’s 1970s TSR thinking. Moreover, fun is inherently subjective and hard to quantify - all we can have is meaningless truisms like „the game is about killing critters and taking their stuff”, „getting loot and powering up”, „playing my character” or „sitting around and eating chips”. That’s not very helpful - it is all true, of course, but it doesn’t really tell you what to do to emphasise this in the game. So instead, they try to remove things from the game which are not fun. What isn’t fun? The things the fans complain about. But who complains?
In short, the kind of people older rulebooks (and pardon my edition snobbery, but that’s just how I see it) warned us about. People whose characters got their swords destroyed by a rust monster and who threw a hissy fit over it. People whose characters died to a hold person spell and who wrote angry letters to Dragon magazine. People who didn’t have fun, whose entertainment was destroyed by this monster or that spell. Meet WotC’s focus groups, meet the people who are the target audience for future releases. The people 4e will be designed to accommodate.

Oh, I don’t have high hopes that these changes can be or will ever be „stopped”. ENWorld is ample proof of that. There comes a change like destroying the creative concept behind the rust monster, and there is a chorus of approving posts praising this decision as if it was the second coming of Our Lord Sliced Bread. Because, after all, D&D before „it was evolved” was a horribly designed, bad, bad game people didn’t have fun with and which didn’t sell, right? Right? According to WotC R&D (heh, R&D... I wonder if EGG ever had an „R&D” department), people who didn’t like D&D before are the people D&D should be designed for in the future, because that’s smart business. I am not making this up either.

There is, of course, the inevitable counter-reaction from reactionaries who don’t appreciate the changes and dare to suggest that hey, it was good the way it used to be, and there is no overwhelming need to „re-design it to be proper at last”. These rose-coloured glass-wearing fools even suggest that the design shouldn’t be used. Naive thinking. In fact, they will accomplish very little. The debate will flow back and forth for a while, and in the end, the sides will agree to meet halfway. And gee, you just conceded your position, dice-boy. You were suckered into accepting that maybe they are right. Maybe it really was bad design all along and it were your pleasant experiences that were false.

The final response is always going to be to remove any edge, any colour, to remove randomness and introduce standardised fair play into the game which started out as highly arbitrary and whimsical - in short, fantastic and open to creative interpretation.

This response is the symptom of a design culture which would never be capable of designing a game like Dungeons &Dragons.

And that is a pity."

The bold bit.nicely describes "people who shouldn't play D&D.".
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top