Who still plays Basic D&D?

[Alcamtar]

Re: Re: Re: Who still plays Basic D&D?

You say that like it's a bad thing, Alcamtar.

Well, not necessarily bad, but certainly different than what I'm used to , and I haven't really decided whether I like it that way.

Because of the 3E rules?

Yes. I find them too complex. The whole point of a class/level system is (a) simplicity and (b) constraint.

Taking the second first, a class system constrains characters into archetypical roles, which helps preserve genre feeling and also makes things simpler when creating characters. Point based systems were developed to offer flexibility, but they suffer from long involved character creation, lack of direction for players, and (sometimes) really weird characters (whether super-optimized munchkins, or just plain strange stuff, like blind paraplegic levitating martial arts masters).

Anyway, one of my favorite aspects of D&D has always been that you could whip together a PC or NPC quickly -- choose race, class, level, and roll a few dice, and you've got it. This is also really easy in a point based system for NPCs (not PCs) -- just pick the desired abilities and go with it.

3E has greatly increased flexibility but has retained classes. Since they don't have a point buy system, in order to maintain balance and class constraints, they have used a complicated system of prerequisites and incremental advancement. This is great for PCs who only add a level at a time, but makes it a pain to construct an NPC, especially a high level NPC. You have to compute the correct skill points, determine which skills are class skills, pick feats that have the right ability and feat and level prerequisites, and then look up class-specific special abilities for that level. Software can ease this burden, but is still time consuming and you have to have a computer handy.

Finally, related to player control, players know exactly what they can do and when, and when they have an obstacle, there is usually a prescribed means of overcoming it. Again, since the GM isn't deciding this stuff by fiat and common sense, he has to be aware of all the rules that may pertain to a given situtation in order to be prepared for player actions. (Sure I can overrule player actions, but my group is comprised of rules lawyers and they wouldn't enjoy the game if I did this.)

Anyway, I just find 3E really tedious to prepare adventures for. It's just a ton of stuff to keep track of and to remember. I really liked the older games, where I could make stuff up as needed and where preparation required very little work. I like the 3E mechanics, I just wish it were simpler. (I really wish d20/3E had just dropped classes altogether and gone with a pure point-based approach, because I think the hybrid just doesn't work very well and is somewhat self defeating.)

 

[ColonelHardisson]

If they had dropped the class system (which I don't find complex at all), they likely still wouldn't have attracted you to the game for the long haul, and would have lost a huge chunk of the rest of their audience.

 

[mmadsen]

If they had dropped the class system (which I don't find complex at all), they likely still wouldn't have attracted you to the game for the long haul, and would have lost a huge chunk of the rest of their audience.

Agreed, but Alcamtar has a point. The allure of the class/level system was, in part, its simplicity, and 3E classes aren't as simple as they used to be. Of course, spellcasters were never simple, since you had to pick spells, but now everyone's that complex.

Anyway, to simplify things, the easiest step is to reduce skill-point allocation to picking out N skills (where N is the number of skill points per level), and giving them all the max allotment of 3 ranks + 1/level.

Feats shouldn't be a problem; you only to pick out two or three usually. If an NPC should be good at something, pick Skill Focus -- even if it's too weak for your PCs to choose.

 

[Alcamtar]

Anyway, to simplify things, the easiest step is to reduce skill-point allocation to picking out N skills (where N is the number of skill points per level), and giving them all the max allotment of 3 ranks + 1/level.

Feats shouldn't be a problem; you only to pick out two or three usually. If an NPC should be good at something, pick Skill Focus -- even if it's too weak for your PCs to choose.

Good idea on the skills. You're right about the feats, it's usually only Fighters that are complicated in that way.

 

[mmadsen]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Who still plays Basic D&D?

Finally, related to player control, players know exactly what they can do and when, and when they have an obstacle, there is usually a prescribed means of overcoming it. Again, since the GM isn't deciding this stuff by fiat and common sense, he has to be aware of all the rules that may pertain to a given situtation in order to be prepared for player actions. (Sure I can overrule player actions, but my group is comprised of rules lawyers and they wouldn't enjoy the game if I did this.)

Could you give an example of this? Most games give rules for common issues, and most players naturally fall into line, attacking problems in a way the rules already handle. Is 3E worse in this respect than other games?

 

[Aaron2]

Basic 3E

I started working on a "Basic" 3e about a year ago. What I did was to try and recreate the old Basic classes with 3e classes by assigning all feats and skills for each class and putting them in one table. For example, the thief class will use the rogue values but will have all its skill points allocated and put in a table similar to the old % one. Also, some non-human race/class will be multiclass with the values averaged. For example, a halfling will be a multiclassed fighter/rogue so will have 5 skill points/lvl and a hit die of 1d8 (again, an average of 1d6 and 1d10). Elves will be Ftr/Wiz/Wiz with 1d6 hit points and a spread out spell slots. Feats will be split the same way, Dwarves will get feats like Power Attack and Cleave while humans get Expertise.

Add to this a greatly simplified spell selection and a shortened monster stat block (no ability scores for ex), and you have a short and simple intro to 3e. Plus, the characters created will almost be 3e legal.

Aaron

 

[WSmith]

Sounds like Aaron2 has done a lot of the same thing I have, but gone in a slightly different direction.

 

[WSmith]

If WOTC had published a book like that I'd be playing 3E today. Guaranteed!

I agree with Nutkin in that, I would want to DM 3e. I don't really mind playing it as a character, (usually a ranger or barbarian, but no heavy spell casting class) But I really don't feel I am good at Dming 3e. To make it work, you need to be good at knowing and understanding the whole package. As a player I can get by. As a DM, I need to be familar with ALL the rules. Be it that time is taking its toll on me, or real life obligations, I just haven't had the time to become familiar enough with the total rule set of 3e in order to be g4ood at the style of DMing that suits me, a very impromtu and improvisationally driven one. I can do that with Basic. Of course, I love what the base concept does, roll vs. target number and add modifers. That is why I strive to crop out a "basic" version of 3e.

 

[Bob Aberton]

I DM 3E. I don't find it complicated - when something comes up that I don't know off the top of my head and can't find in 30 seconds flipping through a rulebook, I make it up.

Generally, I don't prepare ahead of time, I run things off the top of my head, ignore whole sections of the core rulebooks, fudge die rolls AND rules, and make up new rules as I go along. And my players don't mind.

So, y'see, DnD is really only as complicated as you make it.

 

[Henry]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Who still plays Basic D&D?

3E has greatly increased flexibility but has retained classes. Since they don't have a point buy system, in order to maintain balance and class constraints, they have used a complicated system of prerequisites and incremental advancement. This is great for PCs who only add a level at a time, but makes it a pain to construct an NPC, especially a high level NPC. You have to compute the correct skill points, determine which skills are class skills, pick feats that have the right ability and feat and level prerequisites, and then look up class-specific special abilities for that level.

Amazingly, the same point popped up in the thread about pre-statting NPCs (which you posted in, I believe). To me, it's not that big of a deal, since I do not stat out every little nuance of every NPC beforehand - only the 10 or so that are the most important in the campaign at the time.

...since the GM isn't deciding this stuff by fiat and common sense, he has to be aware of all the rules that may pertain to a given situtation in order to be prepared for player actions. (Sure I can overrule player actions, but my group is comprised of rules lawyers and they wouldn't enjoy the game if I did this.)

This has never changed for our campaigns. There are still situations that have to be decided by DM interventon, and the DMG encourages DM interaction in cases where the rules don't flow smoothly (that whole +2/-2 thing works wonders when someone's trying to bullrush an opponent against a table to pin him down, while running down an ice-covered slope.)

In my experience, I have found that the rules lawyers will abuse rules, no matter how arbitrary they are. Beware telling a player how much his bonus or penalty is for a given circumstance, because he will bring it up again the next time it happens. I know this from personal experience.

...
Anyway, I just find 3E really tedious to prepare adventures for. It's just a ton of stuff to keep track of and to remember. I really liked the older games, where I could make stuff up as needed and where preparation required very little work. I like the 3E mechanics, I just wish it were simpler. (I really wish d20/3E had just dropped classes altogether and gone with a pure point-based approach, because I think the hybrid just doesn't work very well and is somewhat self defeating.)

In my experience, I have found that 90% of the 3E rules are mathematically sound derivations of a base set of rules. I can mentally, on the fly, calculate everything from BAB's, skill points, feats, and AC's, to bonus spells for High abilities (I keep up to INT 26 in my head, just to be fast with em), to prerequisites for various prestige classes. It is a well-put together system for making fast calculations.

If 3E really is too problematic to enjoy a good game, then seeking other alternatives is perfect. But I have found it one of the easier systems to DM, even more so than the house-rules monstrosity our group knew as 2nd Edition.