D&D 4E Who's still playing 4E

Nemesis Destiny

Adventurer
Likewise, and while 5e isn't my favorite edition, I think its a perfectly decent and well-written, and in many respects well-thought-out game. I don't actually like the organization of the books one bit, or the whole vagueness of the rules on key points, but its a fine game in terms of say how the different classes cover the concept space, more efficiently than 4e's classes do in many respects.
Yep.

I'd likely be pretty happy with it if 4e hadn't already been released. I'd certainly play 5e before going back to the broken mess that is 3.x (IMHO), but that isn't saying much. If I wanted that 'retro' feel, I'd play some flavour of AD&D. Now that we have 4e though, until something I like better comes along, I'm sticking with it because for me, it works better than anything else.
 

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Yep.

I'd likely be pretty happy with it if 4e hadn't already been released. I'd certainly play 5e before going back to the broken mess that is 3.x (IMHO), but that isn't saying much. If I wanted that 'retro' feel, I'd play some flavour of AD&D. Now that we have 4e though, until something I like better comes along, I'm sticking with it because for me, it works better than anything else.

5e is a FINE update of 2e, basically. If you take 2e's concept space and reimplement based on the experience of 3e, then you have basically 5e.
 

Nemesis Destiny

Adventurer
Getting back to the actual topic, I just ran a very fun session this weekend that had my players visiting a favourite haunt - the city of Mataya, which is known colloquially as the City of Thieves and is basically like New Orleans during Mardi Gras. It's full of colourful characters, dangerous rogues, and intrigue is everywhere.

While there, they infiltrated the subterranean lair of a powerful illusionist, whose help they needed to accomplish a campaign goal of theirs. Naturally things were not quite as they seemed, but they solved things in probably the least-violent manner possible, which is good for them because Heroic PCs should not be in the habit of ticking off Paragon level wizards! They instead made some wise choices and negotiated for what they wanted.

Next week, they'll be taking a well-earned extended rest, though I have a feeling that the party's young, naive Rogue is going to end up biting off more than he can chew in an encounter with an amourous and mysterious lady with connections to a dark cult who has been goading him since his arrival...

Yep, we're definitely back into it :D
 

pemerton

Legend
5e is a FINE update of 2e, basically. If you take 2e's concept space and reimplement based on the experience of 3e, then you have basically 5e.
I think 4e is a necessary developmental step between 3E and 5e. Probably the most striking differences between the two games are that (i) 5e has a two-rest recovery economy, and (ii) spells in 5e use a fixed rather than a X/level damage expression. And (i) and (ii) are inter-related in that, together with the 6-8 encounters with 2 short rests per day guideline, characters should be roughly comparable in their contribution regardless of class.

These are all direct legacies of 4e, although (unlike 5e and 13th Age) 4e doesn't need an X encounters per day guideline prior to Essentials, because everyone's on the same schedule.

4e also trialled bounded accuracy, aiming for a more-or-less steady 65% hit rate for players. 5e largely keeps this, though it reduces the hit rate for monsters to something less than 4e, though still more than AD&D.

I wouldn't quite say that 5e is Essentials with the serial number filed off and a new coat of paint - but I think it's closer to that than is sometimes recognised.

4e tried to address perennial problems with D&D, but I don't see how it tried to become a thought-leader in the industry. It did things that were new-to-D&D, maybe, but nothing innovative as far as the broader industry was concerned.
Skill challenges are new in the technical sense - a players-make-all-the-action-declarations closed scene resolution mechanic. (HeroWars/Quest, for instance, which has a very mechanic of this sort, relies to a significant extent on opposed checks.)

Whether this is a good innovation is a trickier thing: with no action declarations from the GM, it can be easy for the resolution to degenerate into the notorious "dice rolling exercise"; but with no need for the GM to correlate the events on his/her side to actual action declarations or die rolls, and with the DC setting mostly handled by the chart, it does free the GM up to go nuts with the genre appropriate fiction.

I also think that solo monsters are an innovation. The BW rulebooks often have a "further reading" section that includes other RPGs. In the BW Adventure Burner (which is a bit like a GM's guide), the further reading includes 4e. I don't think it's a coincidence that this book also has advice on how to handle action economy issues between several PCs and a single "big bad" type. 4e tackles this perennial issue in reconciling RPG mechanics (especially combat mechanics) with dramatic conventions head on.

(And 5e's Legendary Actions clearly owe a big debt to this 4e work, although they are even more "dissociated"!)

A final 4e innovation, in my view, is reconciling non-sim Gygax-style AC-and-hp combat resolution with high-resolution, almost "gritty" tactical combat action (positioning, 6-second rounds, etc). 3E had elements of each, but (at least in my view) suffered from having too much "grit" in its hp (implausible flirting with simulationism, or "pseudo-simulation as veneer" eg +30 natural armour bonuses); and suffered from not actually putting the tactical detail to work (eg forced movement too hard to achieve; full action issues; etc).

4e is able to deliver a tactical overhead and intricacy comparable to (say) Rolemaster, but within a completely different, Gygaxian "heroic fantasy" paradigm. That's an innovation.

Overall, I would sum these up as borrowing from, and adapting, "indie-"style/Euro-style design, and showing that you can use it to build a fantasy RPG that will be a playable, D&D-style game. And that will deliver heroic fantasy without needing to go as abstract and free-descriptor as (say) HeroQuest revised, but without needing to punt everything to GM fiat.

I think it's a real achievement, and something new in RPGing, even if - as it turned out - not to everyone's taste.
 
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Jhaelen

First Post
Well, our 4e game is _again_ on hiatus for an undefined time period... :(

One of the players of our 4e group is no starting a Pathfinder campaign. I was not exactly excited in the beginning, but after thinking about my 'problems' with the system, I've come to the conclusion, I mostly wouldn't ever want to be the DM. As a player I find it tolerable, especially, since with a good DM, every system can be made to shine.
At least it means I finally get to play one of Paizo's acclaimed Adventure Paths.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I think 4e is a necessary developmental step between 3E and 5e. Probably the most striking differences between the two games are that (i) 5e has a two-rest recovery economy, and
Neither of those require 4e, as the seeds of them were in 3.x, already. The cadence of play in 3.x began to include (very) short rests between combats to apply wands or other healing resources, while arcane casters needed an 8 hr rest to prep spells. Further complicated by divine casters 'dining' at a certain time of day, and items possibly having yet another form of daily schedule. So your two-rest recovery economy could have been just a simplification of 3e.

(ii) spells in 5e use a fixed rather than a X/level damage expression.
First of all, 5e doesn't used fixed damage expressions, per se (though some spells have always done fixed damage - ice storm, for instance), rather it scales with slot level. 3.x already used caps and already based DCs on slot level. Basing damage as well or instead of DC on slot level instead of caster level could as easily have 'evolved' from that.

And (i) and (ii) are inter-related in that, together with the 6-8 encounters with 2 short rests per day guideline, characters should be roughly comparable in their contribution regardless of class.
In theory, yes, over a long & unpredictable enough day, they 'balance.' That was also the case in 3e, there just wasn't a clearly-articulated guideline.

4e also trialled bounded accuracy, aiming for a more-or-less steady 65% hit rate for players. 5e largely keeps this, though it reduces the hit rate for monsters to something less than 4e, though still more than AD&D.
3e equalized level progression in terms of exp/level for all classes, equalizing attack/skill progression, also, is a natural outgrowth of that. 5e did less of it than 4e did, so it could more easily have followed 3e.

Heck, if you gave an alien archaeologist the rules of each system and asked him to estimate their place in a clear progression, the only clue that 5e followed 4e /might/ be Adv/Dis. Everything else points to 5e being intermediary between 2e and 4e.

I wouldn't quite say that 5e is Essentials with the serial number filed off and a new coat of paint - but I think it's closer to that than is sometimes recognised.
I'll agree it's closer than most would credit - probably that's because familiarity with Essentials is pretty limited. But there's an obvious reason: Mearls led the development of both, right?

Skill challenges are new in the technical sense - a players-make-all-the-action-declarations closed scene resolution mechanic.
In another post you pegged closed-scene resolution as a late 90s innovation.

I also think that solo monsters are an innovation.
Champions! had BBEG supervillains (like Dr Destroyer) meant to challenge whole teams, and they were designed differently from villains who worked in teams like the PCs. Besides, 3e encounter design defaulted to a single same-level monster challenging the party.

If you want to look at secondary roles, minion is newer to D&D than the Solo. Thing is, it's nothing new to RPGs.

A final 4e innovation, in my view, is reconciling non-sim Gygax-style AC-and-hp combat resolution with high-resolution, almost "gritty" tactical combat action (positioning, 6-second rounds, etc).
I'll grant you that as a new-to-D&D innovation, too.

But, since 5e hasn't continued the most striking new-to-D&D examples, like SCs, it's hard to argue they point to 5e having clearly developed from 4e rather than 2e & 3e.

Overall, I would sum these up as borrowing from, and adapting, "indie-"style/Euro-style design, and showing that you can use it to build a fantasy RPG that will be a playable, D&D-style game.
Couched as 'borrowing' rather than 'innovating' that sounds fair.
 

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
Somewhat. I'll grant that it's more unified than it was under 4e, but 5e has also left several camps outside the big tent, and the prevalent attitude seems to indicate that's not likely to be addressed, at least not anytime soon. Is it enough to prevent them from branching out with the brand? Probably not, but I want no part of it going forward, and I can't be the only one.
You're not alone. I have zero interest in anything D&D until its sails are readjusted to send it in a less nostalgiac direction. Whether that direction is a U-turn back to the 4e style, or perhaps an entirely new heading, WotC may well catch my interest again. But I've owned and played three entirely different editions, and I've no interest in one whose claim to fame is "Reminds me of some of the others, without really fixing those inconsistencies that bug me about them."
 


Okay, I'll also try my best on the helm to steer this thread gently back on topic:

Today was a very nice 4E evening indeed. I DMed the 15th session of a nice little campaign with a group that never has played P&P RPGs before. The campaign is set in the Nentir Vale and the PCs try to help Lord Markelhay of Fallcrest with some odd bandids that terrorize the King's Road. The bandids came from Raven Roost and were headed by three Shadar-Kai who tried to convince the Lord to give up an important heriloom. The lord was stubborn, the Shadar-Kai were ruthless and so the PCs had to solve the mess.
In this last session the heroes saved Fallcrest from being burned to the ground by erecting a dam out of magical ice. The river was redirected, the fires extinguished, the inhabitants rejoiced and the PCs went back on slaying the white dragon Bitterstrike and finally confronting the right hand of the Lord who allied with the Shadar-Kai.
By helping the people of Fallcrest save their town they got more attached to them. I got the feeling that they really start to care about the town and its fate. In the end my group was very happy and I'm excited in which direction we all are headed now.
I can really say that 4E still gives me some of the best moments of my 18 years in roleplaying.
 


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