D&D 4E Who's still playing 4E

[doctorbadwolf]

My group is running 5e and 4e. Right now we have a later Paragon game set before the sundering, and a low level post sundering 5e game that are connected. Of course, our sundering is different , and there's a 30 year gap, but that's tangential.

Anyway, my only real houserules are about encounter building. half monster hp (even less in some really bad cases), solos can use action points to take actions at the end of any turn and can make save attempts when they do so, as well as being able to use two minor actions to do so.

I also give each PC the math fix feats for free, and I'm thinking about messing with the powers so that PCs get more atwills and utility powers.

I also want to make fewer damage types stack, and some other stuff, but we rely on the cb enough that it'd be hard to make that work.

 

[Raith5]

My 4e campaign is just about to finish in a session or two. Orcus just has to die first!

I have played a bit of 5e. I dont mind 5e overall but there are some things missing from 4e that I really lament. For me things like some spells only being rituals, static defences, Actions Points and second winds are now just crucial to the D&D experience for me.

The question going forward is whether to bring these elements into 5e or do some of the tweaks to 4e mentioned upthread which draw out the freeform roleplaying, make fights quicker etc.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

My 4e campaign is just about to finish in a session or two. Orcus just has to die first!

I have played a bit of 5e. I dont mind 5e overall but there are some things missing from 4e that I really lament. For me things like some spells only being rituals, static defences, Actions Points and second winds are now just crucial to the D&D experience for me.

The question going forward is whether to bring these elements into 5e or do some of the tweaks to 4e mentioned upthread which draw out the freeform roleplaying, make fights quicker etc.

For me, 5E is always going to end up like our years playing AD&D: frustration with the rules will build up over time until I don't want to run it and my players don't want to play it, except as a beer'n'pretzels-like game good for a few sessions. Obviously, I could be wrong and, judging by the support for Gygaxian forms of D&D and 5E itself, my tastes are in the minority.

For me (or us), that means sticking with 4E and working out the kinks. For us that has involved three main areas:

1. Managing PCs. As much as I love the DDi printouts of characters, they're not as logically laid out as, for example, monster stat blocks. Supplementing the DDi sheet with a separate sheet for triggered actions and bonuses granted by certain passive abilities (temp hp from a valorous bard, damage bonuses from a warlord multiclass when an action point is issued etc...) has really helped my players get a proper handle on their characters and use them more efficiently.

To be frank, I think a lot of 4E's "problems", at least IME, come from the failure of players to learn to manage fairly complicated characters. It's not that difficult to do, but I suppose if they had management skills they would be DMs rather than players....

2. Managing monsters. I build all my own monsters now and my mantra is simplify, simplify, simplify. I have found that by building monsters around what I think their key attack should be, I can even run multiple monster types at the same time because each stat block is normally very easy to use. I have gotten better at it, and I expect to keep improving.

3. Managing encounters. The key here seems to be avoiding sacks of hit points. Minions, minions, minions. And I love over-level minions because they're a challenge to hit but they go down nicely. And, as much as possible, I try and use standards rather than elites and solos, unless the latter two are really important to the story.

 

[sabrinathecat]

My group has unanimously decided to stick to 4e, and ignore 5e. We've been playing 4e since two months after it first came out, and have only finished 2 campaigns from lvl1-30. One campaign got stopped at lvl12, and another at lvl5. We have a campaign on hold at lvl24 and another at lvl11 which will continue when our current DM gets burnout.
The PH1 alone has more than 200 race/class combinations. That leaves us plenty to work with.

 

[sabrinathecat]

I should clarify: by over 200 combinations, I mean race x class x builds. We've only covered about 30 possibilities in our group.
For some reason, everyone wants to play Strikers... too much char-op emphasis?

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

I should clarify: by over 200 combinations, I mean race x class x builds. We've only covered about 30 possibilities in our group.
For some reason, everyone wants to play Strikers... too much char-op emphasis?

It's funny how groups differ: My players don't like strikers very much because they're so fragile!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I've always had a good mix in our groups, though most players will tend to desire some serious killin' power at some point in their careers.

 

[Manbearcat]

It's funny how groups differ: My players don't like strikers very much because they're so fragile!

It is interesting how they differ.

In terms of combat, in the two games of 1-30 I've GMed, only one character was a pure (squishy) striker build (Ranger in 1st game). In the second, I had a Rogue, but he was a duelist build with a suite of powers that included a vast array of ripostes, mobility, forced movement, and AC and NAD buffs. Accompanying him was a Bladesinger (with pretty much perma-Bladesong, ridiculous defenses, ripostes, mobility and single target control) and a stout Swarm Druid (big Con with lots of summons, auras, heals, and AoE control). They stomped minions, could be pretty much be wherever they wanted, and their augmented damage came via control; forcing everyone to attack the Bladesinger and Rogue and eat immediate action riposte after riposte.

 

[tyrlaan]

My last game was 4e, but since it ended, I unsubbed to DDI (which frankly I feel isn't worth the $$ when it only gives you access to the tools and no new content). Of course this leaves me in a quandary for whenever I run another game... I'm not sure I'm all that keen on 5e, but do I really want to resub to DDI just to run 4e?

Anyway, this thread is refreshing because it is cutting through my sense of dilemma

For me, 5E is always going to end up like our years playing AD&D: frustration with the rules will build up over time until I don't want to run it and my players don't want to play it, except as a beer'n'pretzels-like game good for a few sessions. Obviously, I could be wrong and, judging by the support for Gygaxian forms of D&D and 5E itself, my tastes are in the minority.

I think you took words out of my mouth that I hadn't even formed yet. This comment seriously resonates with me. To be fair, my experience with 5e is extraordinarily minimal, but too much of it feels like going backwards than going forwards, and a lot of what I used to love about earlier editions are things I no longer love.

Bit I digress, and I don't want to turn this thread into something it's not!

For me (or us), that means sticking with 4E and working out the kinks. For us that has involved three main areas:

1. Managing PCs. As much as I love the DDi printouts of characters, they're not as logically laid out as, for example, monster stat blocks. Supplementing the DDi sheet with a separate sheet for triggered actions and bonuses granted by certain passive abilities (temp hp from a valorous bard, damage bonuses from a warlord multiclass when an action point is issued etc...) has really helped my players get a proper handle on their characters and use them more efficiently.

To be frank, I think a lot of 4E's "problems", at least IME, come from the failure of players to learn to manage fairly complicated characters. It's not that difficult to do, but I suppose if they had management skills they would be DMs rather than players....

2. Managing monsters. I build all my own monsters now and my mantra is simplify, simplify, simplify. I have found that by building monsters around what I think their key attack should be, I can even run multiple monster types at the same time because each stat block is normally very easy to use. I have gotten better at it, and I expect to keep improving.

3. Managing encounters. The key here seems to be avoiding sacks of hit points. Minions, minions, minions. And I love over-level minions because they're a challenge to hit but they go down nicely. And, as much as possible, I try and use standards rather than elites and solos, unless the latter two are really important to the story.

These are amazingly astute points! I'd be exceedingly curious to see what you've done to address point 1 and I'd love if you'd be willing to show some example monsters you've created based on your mantra in point 2.

What do you use for monster building? The old offline app?

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

It is interesting how they differ.

In terms of combat, in the two games of 1-30 I've GMed, only one character was a pure (squishy) striker build (Ranger in 1st game). In the second, I had a Rogue, but he was a duelist build with a suite of powers that included a vast array of ripostes, mobility, forced movement, and AC and NAD buffs. Accompanying him was a Bladesinger (with pretty much perma-Bladesong, ridiculous defenses, ripostes, mobility and single target control) and a stout Swarm Druid (big Con with lots of summons, auras, heals, and AoE control). They stomped minions, could be pretty much be wherever they wanted, and their augmented damage came via control; forcing everyone to attack the Bladesinger and Rogue and eat immediate action riposte after riposte.

Interesting. We also had a bladesinger and, thanks to its Defender-like AC, it wasn't a squishy. It was certainly far more durable - and damaging! - in play than both the thief and the barbarian. That character has since been rebuilt as a pure wizard (at level 9) which has worked out better for the group in terms of synergies.

I'll have a fresh look at those builds you mentioned. Thanks.

My last game was 4e, but since it ended, I unsubbed to DDI (which frankly I feel isn't worth the $$ when it only gives you access to the tools and no new content). Of course this leaves me in a quandary for whenever I run another game... I'm not sure I'm all that keen on 5e, but do I really want to resub to DDI just to run 4e?

Anyway, this thread is refreshing because it is cutting through my sense of dilemma (snip)

I love DDi. There is no way I am unsubbing while I still run 4E. Heck, I will keep my sub even if I think I might run 4E.

(snip) I think you took words out of my mouth that I hadn't even formed yet. This comment seriously resonates with me. To be fair, my experience with 5e is extraordinarily minimal, but too much of it feels like going backwards than going forwards, and a lot of what I used to love about earlier editions are things I no longer love.

Bit I digress, and I don't want to turn this thread into something it's not! (snip)

Briefly digressing for but a moment, I think it's a great way of going backwards. It scratches those itches but is underpinned with a lot more design rigour than EGG was capable of providing.

(snip) These are amazingly astute points! I'd be exceedingly curious to see what you've done to address point 1 and I'd love if you'd be willing to show some example monsters you've created based on your mantra in point 2.

What do you use for monster building? The old offline app?

Point 1: I simply prepare a cheat sheet essentially in stat block format with TRAITS and TRIGGERED ACTIONS. I do it as the DM and then give it to the players because 1. they're fundamentally lazy and 2. it let's me get across their characters so I can give them a hint about options. (You would think I would have trained them better after 30+ years together... but no. )

Point 2: Sure, I will send you some links.

And I still use the online monster builder. That said, I typically build a rough version just in notepad so I can tinker with it without my Third World internet shutting down while I am in the middle of a monster (no, not exaggerating and, yes, I live in the Third World). I have a collection of text files on my desktop with these stat block ideas that I tinker with until I am happy enough to put them together in the online Monster Builder.