Why 4e doesn't bother me.

[ProfessorCirno]

Skill challenges have been in my games for a while. I started using them after I finished playing the first Tomb Raider for the 360. It just blew my mind the different ways the character got around traps and hazards, beyond just flipping a switch or removing a spring. I hadn't included them into social challenges, but that's a small step.

Heh, I perfer it when parties find ingenious ways to get past traps or disarm them while not using any skills at all, unless you count "Player ingenuity" as a skill. At least one of them always makes sure to pack a handy collapsable ten foot pole (or two) somewhere in their inventory.

 

[rounser]

stuff I'd been doing for years anyway.

They said that about 2E, too (in the very intro the DMG, I recall), and it was used as some sort of axiomatic evidence that "things have been gotten right this time" then, too.

Time and hindsight has shown that anecdotes like that don't mean that much - except that someone out there likes the system (for now). You can always find someone who agrees with you if you look hard enough.

For every Hussar there's probably a Rounser who specifically avoids that particular "we've been doing that for years" like the plague.

 

[Steely Dan]

stuff I'd been doing for years anyway.

I totally have that with minions – been using them for years, only now they're "official".

The 3.5 paradigm of 4 encounters a day fighting 1 creature of a CR equal to the party never jived with me.

 

[CountPopeula]

I totally have that with minions – been using them for years, only now they're "official".

The 3.5 paradigm of 4 encounters a day fighting 1 creature of a CR equal to the party never jived with me.

You know, it never occurred to me why my friends and I never had any problems with big groups of monsters and 8-12 encounters without resting. Then i realized it was two things, one being I did have the players make slightly more powerful than average characters, so it was no problem.

But I think the real answer is we were all just so drunk, no one would have noticed if someone was supposed to die or something. I think that's my biggest problem with 4e, if I had one, would be looking at it and saying "how am I supposed to keep this stuff straight and make manhattans?"

 

[Steely Dan]

I think that's my biggest problem with 4e, if I had one, would be looking at it and saying "how am I supposed to keep this stuff straight and make manhattans?"

I find 4th Ed the most drinking friendly edition yet; I can roll around on the floor drinking whiskey sours and still keep the session in order.

4th Ed has really cured the disillusionment I was starting to feel DMing 3rd Ed.

 

[Hussar]

They said that about 2E, too (in the very intro the DMG, I recall), and it was used as some sort of axiomatic evidence that "things have been gotten right this time" then, too.

Time and hindsight has shown that anecdotes like that don't mean that much - except that someone out there likes the system (for now). You can always find someone who agrees with you if you look hard enough.

For every Hussar there's probably a Rounser who specifically avoids that particular "we've been doing that for years" like the plague.

2e was a vast improvement over 1e mechanically. I know it's vogue to pretend like most people didn't switch over to 2e and drop 1e like a sack of potatoes, particularly with a certain brand of grognard, but, 2e kept the game alive and well.

 

[Steely Dan]

2e was a vast improvement over 1e mechanically.

I wouldn't say vast, the rules for combat were pretty much the same, save segments.

That was the problem to me with 2nd Ed; it was just a slight facelift for 1st Ed.

Still, I've DMed more 2nd Ed than other edition (and had a blast).

 

[Heselbine]

I find 4th Ed the most drinking friendly edition yet; I can roll around on the floor drinking whiskey sours and still keep the session in order.

4th Ed has really cured the disillusionment I was starting to feel DMing 3rd Ed.

Much of the burden of running the game play is moved on to the players in 4e. For example, I never find myself looking up a power, whereas I would often have to look up a spell in 3e.

DMing has never been easier or more fun. Don't tell the players, though.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Please note I'm not trying to make a general statement, but a personal one. I'm not saying, empirically that late 3.5 is like 4e, I'm just saying that in my experience, I've found the jump to be more of a hop.

As a personal opinion, that makes sense.

Take races for example. I ran the World's Largest Dungeon for almost two years. In that time, I saw the following PC races: Assaatthi (from Scarred Lands - look a lot like Dragonborn to me), an orc, a goblin, a kobold, a pseudodragon, and a few others. Note, not at the same time, but, I did see them over the course of the campaign.

In the last campaign that I played in, I played a half-fire elemental (using rules from Dragon) priest of St. Cuthbert. So, obviously "out there" races aren't going to be a big shift in gears for me. Tiefling and Dragonborn in core? Why not? I frequently saw non-core races anyway, so, it's not a huge deal. The only gnome I saw in 8 years of 3.x was my own (Zil gnome Binder in Eberron). Dropping gnomes is no skin off my nose.

I think 4E is actually a step away from this kind of gaming, but I see what you're saying. Of course Dragonborn and Tieflings weren't a big deal for me, either, as I'd been running Planescape in 2E (with every race under the stars), and Forgotten Realms in 3E, which took in most of the stray Planescape races (particularly Tieflings and Genasi), and I can't remember running a game that didn't have Lizardfolk as an optional race. Tbh I keep forgetting that anyone is freaked out by the Dragonborn/Tieflings at all, though! Or the lack of gnomes...

That's my point though. The jump from core 3.5 to 4.0 is a pretty long one. The jump from 3.5+late era supplements and splats? A small skip.

Fair enough. I agree with you about 2E, too!

 

[rounser]

I know it's vogue to pretend like most people didn't switch over to 2e and drop 1e like a sack of potatoes, particularly with a certain brand of grognard, but, 2e kept the game alive and well.

I'm not pretending I didn't switch, and as a matter of a fact I really like 2E (mostly because of setting material and CRPGs). And if you're going to call me a grognard, at least be someone with a spine and call me names directly.

I'm just saying that it's the same old propaganda from the past. It's just an anecdote involving one person dressed up like it was some home truth involving everyone's wants and needs, and that's just intentionally misleading IMO.