Why all the Second Edition Haters?

I left D&D slightly before 2nd ed. and took up RuneQuest and then WFRP. A friend tried to get me back into D&D, but 2nd ed. mechanics never inspired me. The main reason I play D&D today is because it is the system everybody plays and it is a system I can live with - despite its flaws.
 

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I have many many fond memories of 2E products. I miss that edition terribly for what it offered in fluff material (in terms of crunch, 3.5E is light-years beyond 2E).
 

Hmmm... personally, I think of 2E more as a 1.1E where a lot of good stuff was killed, and but a few things were better. I played with the 2nd Ed PHB, but all the rulebooks as a DM from 1st Ed (never got around to buying the DMG2 or the various monster compendiums etc.) 2E soon had the look and feel of simply being a 'make a quick buck' scheme from T$R as we called them at the time. With all the copyright fights on the net, the books that fell apart if you touched them and the explosion of (IMHO) useless material (the complete xxx books, an insane proliferation of useless kits etc.).

As many people here mentioned, the 'only' good things produced (content-wise) were the campaign settings. I however do not consider them part of 2Ed _rules_. I am still fond of my Planescape, Spelljammer and Ravenloft boxed sets (never got into DarkSun, although it looks cool), and will plunge them for ideas under any system, be it 3.0, 3.5 or 4.0....
 

First Edition was, for all practical purposes, my introduction to roleplaying games. (I'd previously read both the Basic and Expert D&D rulebooks, but had never actually played.) I have a fondness for it for that reason. (And pretty much only that reason.)

Second Edition fixed up a lot of stuff, so that at first I really liked it, but suffered from massive power escalation, to the point that it actually drove me away from D&D. (I think the final straw was The Complete Nosepicker's Handbook.)

Third Edition brought me back. There are still things that I dislike about D&D -- the importance of magic items relative to inherent PC abilities being the main one -- but 3E fixed quite a bit.
 

The best things about 2e are the things that can be migrated over to 3e with minimal difficulty.

So there's not a lot of 'love,' because things like flavor text for campaign settings is something you can download for five bucks, and use almost-wholesale, in your campaign today.
 

I have many fond memories of 2e, and I would run it again if I found enough interested players. I think I liked it because I didn't use kits or any other optional rulebooks. I certainly didn't buy anything with the word complete in it. Wait, was that Necromancer book a complete book? OK, maybe one book.

I had my own skills system. I had my own spot/search system. I had an altered THACO and AC system. I had a system that was surprisingly close to the feat system, but far fewer feats, that were essentially decided upon as needed/thought of. I did like/love the specialty priests for FR. I also love FR. I ignored all the novels, the Avatar series, and that Cyric crap.


Was 2e better than 1e? I definitely think so, or I would have never switched.


So, apparently, 2e stressed me out a lot less than it did others. Do i like 3e better? Overall, yes. Still room for improvement, but that is an acceptable fact of games in general.
 

I do have a good friend who is an avowed fan of 2e. It's because he learned to play under 2nd Edition, or more specifically, a highly altered version.

Most of the DM's I played under back then had informally collaborated and cross-pollinated house rules. There was a version of AD&D that at the time we referred to as "2.5" (we laughed when they came out with an official "3.5"). This was derived from the core books, PO: Spells & Magic, DMO: High Level Campaigns, PO: Skills & Powers, a lot of house rules (including special techniques for spellcasters, rogues and warriors you could buy with your character points from Skills & Powers that were practically the same thing as feats), and rules for gaining ability score points as you went up in level. Oh, and a multiclassing system that let all races multiclass (including humans), and pick up new classes at any time, or stop progressing in classes at any time. Level limits were gone too. Throw in a few 2e classes that needed to be back in (Monk, Barbarian & Assassin), and a few classes from FR stuff that made sense (Mystic from Faiths and Avatars, and all the Speciality Priesthoods since the games were often FR games).

In other words, the 2e he learned on was 2nd Edition with many of the good ideas of 3rd edition bolted on (or more accurately, independently grown from it). I do think that a lot of the 3e changes therefore were, if not inevitable, the next logical step in evolution (we came up with a lot of them independently, I can only presume that other groups were doing similar things).

He still grumbles that here was no need for 3e (with an attitude of "if it wasn't broken, don't fix it"), despite his friends trying to point out that 2e, as written, includes a lot of things he hates, and what he thinks of when he remembers D&D was a heavily modified version of 2e, that was almost closer to 3e. However, after over 3 years now, he begrudgingly plays 3e (learning other d20 games, like Star Wars, facilitated the conversion since he could learn to play those games without feeling like he was betraying his memories, then when he gets invited to play a 3e game, he already knows most of the new rules).

The point of this is, that 1E and 2E were very prone to house rules. From what I have gathered, no two gaming groups really played the same game. They used the same general books, and called it D&D, but each group/campaign had a written or unwritten book of rulings, precedents, and variant rules. TSR back then wasn't known for being very industrious with Q&A, or errata. Sage Advice in issues of Dragon was really the only way to get an official, or semi-official opinion on anything related to rules.

3E doesn't usually have as many house rules in my experience, mostly because it doesn't need them. It has moved beyond 1E being designed strictly for one specific style of fantasy roleplaying (in the model of Lieber, Vance and Howard, as many have pointed out), and while 2E was more flexible, it achieved it's flexiblity by making each campaign setting have a whole library of changed rules, new systems, and rewriting the game for each setting, while retaining some "legacy code" arbitrary restrictions (the 2E Druidic Heirarchy, for example). 3E included enough options and features in it to allow it to be used for all these genres and styles, without having to constantly re-write the game to create flavor and preserve balance.

3E, and the derived d20 System have proven their flexibility and appeal in all the other games built on it, like the official WotC ones of Wheel of Time, Star Wars, Call of Cthulhu & d20 Modern, and the countless 3rd party games. Just try and make a sci-fi or modern game using 2e mechanics, with it's system of Thief Skills and Nonweapon Proficiencies, and the dual-classing mechanics for humans, but multiclassing for nonhumans, ect.
 
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People that start with 1e but are then exposed to 2e and change, are people whoa re dispositioned towards accepting change. People who don't stick in 1e. 3e, regrdless of degree of improvement, will then again suck in a lot of the people that don't mind change.

The end result is that you have 1e players (laggards), and 3e players (adopters). Only very few people started in 2e, and among those you still have those who are actually adopters. This is why the crowd splits in the way it does I think.

Rav
 

Ravellion said:
People that start with 1e but are then exposed to 2e and change, are people whoa re dispositioned towards accepting change. People who don't stick in 1e. 3e, regrdless of degree of improvement, will then again suck in a lot of the people that don't mind change.
Interesting theory. Here's my observation of eight long-term gaming groups that I'm familiar with. My original group went from 1E to 2E and then to 3E, as did two other groups I know. I know of two other groups that stuck with 1E until 3E came out and then changed, and I know still another three groups who continue to use 1E rules.
 

I have great memories of my 2e days but it isn't because of the ruleset. It was horrid, broken in multiple places, and was just a crude bolt-on set of rules that could have easily been an expansion book to 1e. In fact before 2e there was such a bolt-on ... Wilderness and Dungeoneer Survival Guides introduced the non-weapon proficiency systems.

The only thing in 2e that was original were unbalanced kits, most of which lacked flavour, and then the race books which made me gag at the crunchy bits. I was constantly making rules up and one player was assigned the task of writing my ruling down for consistency. I even published a 'bible' for my campaign world which was quite large.

My fond memories were the campaigns and adventures I ran, and the players and how they ran their characters in them. Ruleset wasn't important really, I just started my roleplaying career with D&D at the age of 10 therefore I stuck to it.

3e makes running games a lot much easier for my style. My bible is almost non-existant. Instead of rule modifications, vetos, and adjustments, it is only campaign information now.
 

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