D&D General Why are "ugly evil orcs" so unpopular?

[Mind of tempest]

Huh? I’m suggesting rebuilding the setting from the ground up to make the existence or nonexistence of gods a matter of faith rather than an objective fact. And add that to the list of things Keith Baker already figured out 17 years ago.

Like I said, Warhammer 40K orcs are the go-to example. Though, my preference is instead to make the humanoid races more diverse and nuanced.

but then everything is just past eberron and that would get old fast.

sometimes you just want big evil monsters to slay idea a whole bunch of them hence I asked as you can use them as threat-based time limit to more complex stories evil as a disaster as it where

 

[Charlaquin]

but then everything is just past eberron and that would get old fast.

Personally, I think uncomplicated good vs. evil stories get old far faster.

sometimes you just want big evil monsters to slay idea a whole bunch of them

I very rarely find myself wanting such simple conflict, but if you do, just make it a product of action rather than nature. Fascist regimes, cults, etc.

hence I asked as you can use them as threat-based time limit to more complex stories evil as a disaster as it where

Not sure I follow.

 

[DemoMonkey]

Things that are absolutely, completely, emphatically NOT TRUE in the real world can be absolutely, completely, emphatically TRUE in an imaginary one.

If magic is real, other absurdities - a race that is universally evil, for example - is just as plausible. And just as divorced from the real world.

 

[Charlaquin]

Things that are absolutely, completely, emphatically NOT TRUE in the real world can be absolutely, completely, emphatically TRUE in an imaginary one.

Sure, but also, our fiction doesn’t exist in a vacuum. We should be conscious and critical of the messages our fiction send.

If magic is real, other absurdities - a race that is universally evil, for example - is just as plausible.

Sure, but how such impossible things are portrayed matters. Because again, the portrayal doesn’t exist in a vacuum.

And just as divorced from the real world.

I would say fiction is never entirely divorced from the real world. Since most writers are real, the things they write are necessarily informed by their experience of the real world, and since most readers are real, the things they read necessarily inform their experience of the real world.

 

[ASchmidt]

In the end, I think it depends on what you want out of your game. If you want a bit more hack, slash, and uncomplicated "I killed the monster, saved the princess, and got the treasure", then old school evil orcs are great for you. If you want a game with more complexity (which doesn't mean better or worse, just different), then having more grey areas is a good thing and orcs that may be good or evil depending on their tribe or even just their individual nature is a good thing, for you.

 

[Charlaquin]

In the end, I think it depends on what you want out of your game. If you want a bit more hack, slash, and uncomplicated "I killed the monster, saved the princess, and got the treasure", then old school evil orcs are great for you. If you want a game with more complexity (which doesn't mean better or worse, just different), then having more grey areas is a good thing and orcs that may be good or evil depending on their tribe or even just their individual nature is a good thing, for you.

I don’t disagree, but I also don’t think you need always-evil orcs (or whatever other race) to have uncomplicated “kill monsters, save people” adventures. If you want them for your home game (and your players are up for it), by all means knock yourself out. But, I think that the books should not present always-evil races as a thing by default, and I think the game can still deliver those uncomplicated good vs. evil stories without them.

 

[Faolyn]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but the plot of zootopia is all about not being "all ugly all evil"....

It's about "all X is evil." With X meaning predator, in that particular movie.

 

[Faolyn]

Even that, I feel has some pretty gaping holes. If orcs are always evil because Gruumsh created them to be evil, why aren’t elves and dwarves always good?

The canonical answer is, the evil gods micromanage their worshipers while the non-evil gods believe in free will.

It's... not a great answer. For many reasons, including "OK, there's no Gruumsh in my setting, so why are orcs evil?" But also because this automatically puts the non-evil gods in a losing position. They will lose followers to the other side, doubly so if their pantheon has any evil members in it or if there are any evil gods that aren't racial.

 

[Malmuria]

I question the thesis that orcs or half orcs have gotten uglier over the years in official dnd products. The style of representation has changed, obviously, but not in any particular direction. David Sutherland's AD&D art was overall kind of derpy, and comparatively the art for all PC races in later editions looks more heroic and dynamic.

Spoiler: Orcs across editions

Spoiler: Half Orcs

 

[Charlaquin]

The canonical answer is, the evil gods micromanage their worshipers while the non-evil gods believe in free will.

It's... not a great answer. For many reasons, including "OK, there's no Gruumsh in my setting, so why are orcs evil?" But also because this automatically puts the non-evil gods in a losing position. They will lose followers to the other side, doubly so if their pantheon has any evil members in it or if there are any evil gods that aren't racial.

It also necessarily means orcs don’t have free will. Which… is certainly a route you could go down, but I don’t think it’s consistent with the way orcs have historically been portrayed in D&D. They certainly seem to think and make decisions like free-willed beings. I think a portrayal of orcs that was actually consistent with this notion would have them behaving much more deterministically. Like robots.