D&D 5E Why Balance is Bad

[Ahnehnois]

What the rogue really suffers from it the hp mechanic.

True. Using a vp/wp system, and rewriting sneak attack so it increases threat range and scales with level (noting that crits ignore vitality and deal wound damage, and wound points don't increase much with level) makes a high level rogue much scarier.

 

[Bedrockgames]

What the rogue really suffers from it the hp mechanic.

In a game without escalating hit points, any attack from stealth or flank is deadly, becasue the defenses you have instead of hit points (parries, dodges, defense values) generally do not work well when you are unaware. To emulate this in the AnD hit-point-paradigm, we have Sneak Attack. I see sneak attack as a way to circumvent the hit point rules, essentially a gamey mechanic. But when you try to apply a "simulationist" approach to hit points, you get things like precision damage that cannot affect certain monsters or anyone with concealment. The more "realism" you try to apply to the rogue, the more the basic gamety of hit points become glaring.

I think HP are an abstraction that can break down when you think aboutdthem, but i find during play i dont really notice, so they don't bother me. However I feel HP are very importanted to making D&DlH the way it does. If d&d had a less forgiving wound system for example (which is arguably more realistic) i thini it would make things like dungeon crawls pretty difficult to do (at least the kinds of dungeon crawls D&D is known for).

Pesonally, i like wound systems, and we use them in our own games. But when I tried to make a fantasy game using that system that also featured dungeon crawls as an adventure element, i discovered i had to massively increase the number of wounds allotted to player characters (other wise they couldn't do a traditional dungeon crawl all that well). So I agree HP are a bit of a gamey element, but they are one i can definitely live with because they add alot to play i just dont tend to notice any believability issues during the game.

 

[Tuft]

I think HP are an abstraction that can break down when you think aboutdthem, but i find during play i dont really notice, so they don't bother me.

You can see how much HP breaks down in how many other mechanisms there are that subverts the HP mechanism.

Whenever you have "this game mechanism ought to take effect immediately", you have to add a special rule that bypasses HP.

On the top of my head, you have:
* SoS/SoD
* Ability Damage
* Level Drain
* Combat Maneuvers: Trip, Grapple etc
* Even caltrops have their own special rules to bypass the HP system; why is caltrop damage different from any other damage to the feet?
* recall the old 1E assassination percentage roll?

You have or have had rules that try to be part of the HP mechanism, but really are there to try to short-circuit it:
* sneak attack
* massive damage save
* coup de grace (especially against walls and structures...)

And thus you get the conflict between those that have to use the HP mechanism and slowly wear down a mountain of HP, and those who can quickly bypass all that work with a quick SoD or grapple, or anomalies such as nobody is afraid of someone holding a crossbow to your head and saying "don't move or I'll shoot".

 

[Bedrockgames]

You can see how much HP breaks down in how many other mechanisms there are that subverts the HP mechanism.

Whenever you have "this game mechanism ought to take effect immediately", you have to add a special rule that bypasses HP.

On the top of my head, you have:
* SoS/SoD
* Ability Damage
* Level Drain
* Combat Maneuvers: Trip, Grapple etc
* Even caltrops have their own special rules to bypass the HP system; why is caltrop damage different from any other damage to the feet?
* recall the old 1E assassination percentage roll?

You have or have had rules that try to be part of the HP mechanism, but really are there to try to short-circuit it:
* sneak attack
* massive damage save
* coup de grace (especially against walls and structures...)

And thus you get the conflict between those that have to use the HP mechanism and slowly wear down a mountain of HP, and those who can quickly bypass all that work with a quick SoD or grapple, or anomalies such as nobody is afraid of someone holding a crossbow to your head and saying "don't move or I'll shoot".

Sure. I am not saying otherwise. I am saying i only tend to notice later, when i think about it a bit, not during actual play. And that it doesn't bother me enough that I would want to get rid of HP from D&D, for me they add too much good to the game. Like i said, i usually prefer wound systems. Butdi thik you endduo having a very different feel if you replace HP with wounds or something more gritty in D&D

 

[Starfox]

I think HP are an abstraction that can break down when you think aboutdthem, but i find during play i dont really notice, so they don't bother me. However I feel HP are very importanted to making D&DlH the way it does.

I basically agree - DnD without hit points is another game. But it does lead to consequences and issues as [MENTION=60045]Tuft[/MENTION] points out, one of them Sneak Attack. Many GMs and game designers weaken sneak attack because it is not "realistic", without realizing that sneak attack is a reaction to the lack or realism, not the source of it.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I basically agree - DnD without hit points is another game. But it does lead to consequences and issues as @Tuft points out, one of them Sneak Attack. Many GMs and game designers weaken sneak attack because it is not "realistic", without realizing that sneak attack is a reaction to the lack or realism, not the source of it.

I guess realism isn't a big concern for me. I usually talk about believabiity, which i think is different so sneak attack for me is pretty believable, it doesn't disrupt my sense of what is going on at all (an d it feels like it makes sense that a person skilled at attacking people from dark alleys, could bypass the hP mechanism by slipping a dagger into your kidney or something.

 

[Tuft]

I basically agree - DnD without hit points is another game. But it does lead to consequences and issues as [MENTION=60045]Tuft[/MENTION] points out, one of them Sneak Attack. Many GMs and game designers weaken sneak attack because it is not "realistic", without realizing that sneak attack is a reaction to the lack or realism, not the source of it.

In the same way, one has to realize that both SoD and Combat Maneuvers are deliberate means to bypass the HP system.

 

[Tuft]

I guess realism isn't a big concern for me. I usually talk about believabiity, which i think is different so sneak attack for me is pretty believable, it doesn't disrupt my sense of what is going on at all (an d it feels like it makes sense that a person skilled at attacking people from dark alleys, could bypass the hP mechanism by slipping a dagger into your kidney or something.

Sorry, no dark alleys; If I recall correctly, you cannot sneak attack in dim light...

 

[Bedrockgames]

Sorry, no dark alleys; If I recall correctly, you cannot sneak attack in dim light...

As far as I know, in 2E, there is on such limitation (would have to double check 3E to see if ti is there, but i would overule this, as backstabbing to me is largely about springin up on someone from the darkness).

 

[Tuft]

(would have to double check 3E to see if ti is there [...]).

3.5 SRD:

"A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment"

"In an area of shadowy illumination, a character can see dimly. Creatures within this area have concealment relative to that character. A creature in an area of shadowy illumination can make a Hide check to conceal itself."