Why did they change the Keen rule and not the property?

[Kae'Yoss]

I think 3rd party could still produce Keen like enchantments that expressly stack with Improved Critical. I also do not think that the core rules need to try and balance out 3rd party materials. 3rd party stuff will always be able to break the core system if you let it and this won't change that.

d20 Material won't change the rules. They won't say "this stacks with keen even though the rules say that isn't possible". You can do that in your own campaign, but you can't do that with something that carries the d20 logo. Of course, you could make blanket rule like "this campaign setting doesn't use the stacking crit rules", but I don't think they'll do that.

You can, as I said, make a "very keen" weapon that triples the threat range, or make a "very improved critical feet" (maybe with IC as prerey) feat that does the same. You'll still triple it, but it won't stack with the normal keen or improved critical, and you couldn't take the "Very Improved Critical" feat from Powergamer Press and the "Greater Critical" feat from Munchkin Games (both tripling your crit range) and have 16-20/4 on your scythe.

Anyway, this won't change anything at all: you can break both rules IYC with equal ease, and both are equally simple, IMO.

 

[Anubis the Doomseer]

Maybe they feared the splatbooks (weapon master will still get +2 on crit range with your rule) and third party products with feats or magic enhancements that will still add crit range beyond keen and improved crit.

I would sincerely hope they aren't writing rules fearing the third-party products. This is, IMO, a really stupid way of doing things because any third party product could be released with a broken feat, race, class, etc. Since there is really no oversight of these products (and rightly so) it makes preemptively responding to these potential attacks to be... rather silly.

Sort of like planning your real life so as to avoid the potential of coming across a yeti (or being hit on the head by a piece of skylab) - it may happen but fearing it your whole life is poor way to live.

- Ma'at

 

[Plane Sailing]

I think that an interesting alternative ruling would be to allow Improved Crit feat to apply to *all* weapons you are proficient in. This would make the feat still useful to take for its versatility (just as power attack, improved disarm etc. etc. can be used with any legitimate weapon)

Cheers

 

[Darklone]

*grumbles something about backwards compatibility...*

 

[Storm Raven]

d20 Material won't change the rules. They won't say "this stacks with keen even though the rules say that isn't possible". You can do that in your own campaign, but you can't do that with something that carries the d20 logo. Of course, you could make blanket rule like "this campaign setting doesn't use the stacking crit rules", but I don't think they'll do that.

Sure you can do that. I, as a third party publisher can publish any weapon enhancement I want to. Here's mine:

Super Sharp: This enchantment doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only slashing and piercing weapons can be enchanted to be super sharp. Note: This effect stacks with the effect granted by the Improved Critical feat. The Improved Critical feat also doubles the normal, nonmagical threat range of a weapon. As with all doubled doublings, the result is triple.
Caster Level: 10th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, keen edge; Market Price: +1 bonus.

 

[Hackenslash]

Good House Rule !!!

I think that an interesting alternative ruling would be to allow Improved Crit feat to apply to *all* weapons you are proficient in. This would make the feat still useful to take for its versatility (just as power attack, improved disarm etc. etc. can be used with any legitimate weapon)

Cheers

I quite like this as House rule and think I might use it in my new 3.5 Edition campaign. It seems fairly balanced and not too over powering as you can only use, (on average - not including two weapon fighters) one weapon at a time. The trouble would arise if you had a Ranger using two weapons and getting the improved critical feat once, but having a different weapon in each hand. Not sure about that one...but might have to add an additional HR for that scenario. Maybe a Two Weapon fighting Critical or something....Peace All.

 

[Camarath]

d20 Material won't change the rules. They won't say "this stacks with keen even though the rules say that isn't possible". You can do that in your own campaign, but you can't do that with something that carries the d20 logo. Of course, you could make blanket rule like "this campaign setting doesn't use the stacking crit rules", but I don't think they'll do that.

How is the rule worded I have not seen it yet. Is it only Keen and Improved Critical that no longer stack because that would not effect other feats and magical effects. Or is it all threat range increasing effects no longer stack because they all ready have a stated exception to that with the Weapon Master. If WotC makes exceptions to the rules do think that other companies will not do so. d20 products tweek rules and magical properties all the time

 

[Anubis]

I thought the same thing. Why not just have Keen grant the wielder Improved Critical?

You know what the funny thing is? Everybody is complaining about the Weapon Master not gaining the Ki Critical range now, but fail to realize that they still do!

Has everybody forgotten that the core rules are the BASIS and that "anything stated in any specific rule thereafter modifier it as stated"? This means that because Ki Critical SPECIFICALLY STATES that it stacks with other threat range enhancers, IT STILL DOES *regardless of the new stcking rules*.

 

[Pax]

I thought the same thing. Why not just have Keen grant the wielder Improved Critical?

You know what the funny thing is? Everybody is complaining about the Weapon Master not gaining the Ki Critical range now, but fail to realize that they still do!

Has everybody forgotten that the core rules are the BASIS and that "anything stated in any specific rule thereafter modifier it as stated"? This means that because Ki Critical SPECIFICALLY STATES that it stacks with other threat range enhancers, IT STILL DOES *regardless of the new stcking rules*.

Not exactly true.

The Weapon Master gains the benefits of the feat Improved Critical; if he already has it, the threat range of his weapon is increased by 2.

Regardless -- 3/5 weapon masters will gain zero benefit from a weapon being Keen.

3.0e Weaponmaster with a +1 Keen Falchion and the improved critical feat:
... Basic threat range 18-20
... Improved Critical doubles the threat range
... Keen doubles the threat range
... Weapon Master increases threat range by +2
------ NET THREAT RANGE: 10-20

3.5e Weaponmaster with a +1 Keen Falchion and the improved critical feat:
... Basic threat range 18-20
... Improved Critical doubles the threat range
... Keen no longer stacks!
... Weapon Master increases threat range by +2
------ NET THREAT RANGE: 13-20

Sure, it doesn't look like much; and mechanically, the latter is no weaker than the first, because MOST of the time, you will need a 15+ to hit anyway (due to probable use of power attack, if nothing else).

However, it's still a loss; any player with a Weapon master swinging a keen weapon around is going to be unhappy to find out that the ability is suddenly useless, and a waste of money.

Besides which, look at it WITHOUT the Weapon Master: under the core rules, there were two ways to expand your threat range: jeen weapons, and the Improved Critical feat. As of 3.5e, the two no longer stack at all ... which means non-weapon master crit-focussed builds will suffer, too.

 

[Anubis]

Not exactly true.

The Weapon Master gains the benefits of the feat Improved Critical; if he already has it, the threat range of his weapon is increased by 2.

I know this, but I always assume the Weapon Master has Improved Critical first anyway, makes no sense otherwise.

Regardless -- 3/5 weapon masters will gain zero benefit from a weapon being Keen.

3.0e Weaponmaster with a +1 Keen Falchion and the improved critical feat:
... Basic threat range 18-20
... Improved Critical doubles the threat range
... Keen doubles the threat range
... Weapon Master increases threat range by +2
------ NET THREAT RANGE: 10-20

3.5e Weaponmaster with a +1 Keen Falchion and the improved critical feat:
... Basic threat range 18-20
... Improved Critical doubles the threat range
... Keen no longer stacks!
... Weapon Master increases threat range by +2
------ NET THREAT RANGE: 13-20

I know this as well. Sounds reasonable to me.

Sure, it doesn't look like much; and mechanically, the latter is no weaker than the first, because MOST of the time, you will need a 15+ to hit anyway (due to probable use of power attack, if nothing else).

That's part of my point, although certainly not the whole point.

However, it's still a loss; any player with a Weapon master swinging a keen weapon around is going to be unhappy to find out that the ability is suddenly useless, and a waste of money.

I would think that ANY fair DM, upon getting the 3.5 books, will add up the wealth each character has and then allow the person to get new equipment as long as it's within reason. Used to have a Keen Falchion +1? Feel free to buy a Frost Falchion +1 or even a Falchion +2. Some items are cheaper? Well then you get more stuff. Some items more expensive? Well, you lose some things.

Anyway intelligent DM will see these facts and balance accordingly.

Besides which, look at it WITHOUT the Weapon Master: under the core rules, there were two ways to expand your threat range: jeen weapons, and the Improved Critical feat. As of 3.5e, the two no longer stack at all ... which means non-weapon master crit-focussed builds will suffer, too.

Why does everyone miss the obvious point that people can create feats and magical effects that triple or quadruple threat range that overlaps with this stuff? It's how damn near everything else works. Skill Focus, Spell Focus, etc. Why not this as well? If anything, this rule change puts critical threat expansions in with the aforementioned abilities, creating a standard.